Ryan Parke — Testosterone, Suicide & Why Doing Everything Still Wasn't Enough

Speaker 3: A warning that this episode discusses important but potentially difficult topics, including suicide. I\'m Adam Walker, a biometrics consultant, and this is the Pharma Prescribed Podcast where leaders, innovators, and hidden voices in healthcare open up, no sound bites, no spin, just raw insight, one prescription at a time.

Speaker 3: In an industry driven by data protocols and pressure, we rarely pause to ask the human questions. What drives us, what breaks us, and what truths live behind the titles we wear.

Speaker 3: Ryan Park is a 10 x speaker, award-winning coach and a leading voice in men\'s mental health. He\'s the author of the book, how to Help Him, the Book for Women, worried About a Man After Losing a Close Friend to Suicide in 2019.

Speaker 3: Ryan launched a deep investigation into why traditional approaches often fail men. His evidence-based framework draws from many hundreds of sources and challenges, outdated views on testosterone, showing it\'s not just a driver of aggression, but a vital hormone for calm, resilience, and heart health.

Speaker 3: Ryan\'s 90 day coaching program helps men overcome depression, beat procrastination, and reclaim their purpose. He\'s worked with NHS trusts International Schools emergency Services, and is a certified mental health first aider and a suicide first aider. For full disclosure, I\'ve been working with Ryan for more than a year during one of the most difficult periods of my life.

Speaker 3: His guidance has been instructive, motivational, and both personally and professionally. Ryan, it\'s my absolute pleasure to welcome you to find the prescribed today. How are you?

Speaker 4: I\'m really good Adam. It\'s my honor to be here on Pharma Prescribed, and thank you for making that introduction so personal as well.

Speaker 3: Thank you. I wonder, Ryan, if you would start by perhaps telling our audience more about the mission you\'ve been on since 2019 and what got you into this in the very first place?

Speaker 4: So the story. There\'s relevance.

Speaker 4: This conversation begins in 2019 June, 2019, where I bumped into a lady who I had not seen in years, and I was really excited to hear the latest about her son because Jenny\'s son, Brad, was taller than me, more muscular.

Speaker 4: Some would say slightly better looking. I know that\'s hard for us to believe, but a strong argument could have been made. The important thing to know though, is that Brad had a fast car, big house, and a great job. Plus he was a dad with a loving wife, and I like to believe at the time that I was on the same trajectory as Brad, but I was just a couple of years behind because of the age difference.

Speaker 4: Then I saw the look on his mom\'s face and I thought, oh no. What have I said to upset her? And Jenny said, oh my gosh, Ryan, you\'re asking me how Brad is? You clearly don\'t know. Brad has taken his own life. Now, I was really taken aback by that, Adam for a couple of reasons. One reason was, of course, the initial loss of Brad.

Speaker 4: I was not expecting that. But the other thing that really took me back is up until that point, I\'d always heard and believed that the reason why men might die from suicide at higher rates than women. It\'s because they don\'t talk and they don\'t reach out for help when they need it. And yet, Brad was the most open and articulate man that I knew.

Speaker 4: In fact, I found out after his death that two years before Brad died, he had decided now was the time to reach out and get some help with his mental health. One of the ways that Brad did that is he went to see his doctor, or Brad\'s doctor, of course, did what doctors are trained to do. And so Brad was referred to talking therapy.

Speaker 4: And prescribed antidepressants. Brad attended talking therapy, took antidepressants, and two months before his death, his mum, Jenny, who worked in mental health herself, said, Brad, call me every night. Tell me how you feel, because you\'ve got to get these feelings off your chest. Now, please don\'t get me wrong, I\'m not suggesting that these things didn\'t help Brad.

Speaker 4: I\'m sure they did. But what struck me at the time Adam was here was a man who\'d done all the things that we tell men in crisis to do, and yet he still wasn\'t here anymore. I wondered what else could Brad have done? And Brad\'s mom, Jenny said to me, Ryan, you should learn about this because she explained every five hours, four people take their own lives in the UK and Ireland.

Speaker 4: Now, of course, anybody can have thoughts about suicide regardless of their biological sex or gender identity, but it\'s also worth us knowing that for every four people that die from suicide in the UK and Ireland, three of them are men.

Speaker 4: I took what Jenny said very seriously there, and then I set aside one day every week from June, 2019 to the end of the year to learn everything that I could.

Speaker 4: About male mental health and on my very first day of research, I was reading studies on life expectancy in men, and I bumped into a study that stopped me in my tracks because it just happened to mention that there appears to be one day every year where heart attacks in men jump up by potentially as much as 30%, and yet on the same day of the year, heart attacks in women actually go down significantly, it seems.

Speaker 4: Adam, do you remember what day that is?

Speaker 3: I do vividly because you reminded it to me and it is the Monday after the day. The clocks go forward in March, is it not?

Speaker 4: That\'s correct. Yep.

Speaker 4: It\'s the introduction of daylight savings. So here in the uk that\'s gonna be in March, I believe, in the US it\'s March and Australia, it\'s October.

Speaker 4: It\'s when the clocks jump forward.

Speaker 3: And why is that?

Speaker 4: So that\'s what I wondered too. And it turns out that no single study seems to have looked into why the exact same thing happening seems to impact men and women so differently. So I spent about the next six hours reading around this phenomenon, trying to understand it in more detail.

Speaker 4: And here are some things I\'ve found that seemed relevant to me. So when the clocks jumped forward by an hour, in theory, we should go to bed an hour early. But do you ever do that? I think most people don\'t do that. We just accept we\'re gonna lose an hour\'s sleep. So what happens in our body when we lose even an hour of sleep depends upon whether you are biologically male or biologically female.

Speaker 4: In a male body, losing even one hour of sleep lowers a hormone called testosterone for a few days it seems. And in a male body, as testosterone goes down, the chances of having a heart attack go up. And when I first learned that, I remember thinking, that\'s really weird \'cause I\'d dunno about you. But at that point in my life, I\'d never heard anything positive about testosterone.

Speaker 4: In fact, I remember when I was a kid and there was a fight in the local pub, I used to hear my parents\' friends saying, it\'s no wonder they ended up fighting. There was too much testosterone. Have you ever heard that? Too much testosterone If it makes men aggressive,

Speaker 3: absolutely. And indeed. As you were describing that, I was thinking about my own experiences of being tired and aggression, perhaps being linked to being tired, as opposed to on the flip side.

Speaker 3: Yeah. That restful state when you have a really good night\'s sleep and there\'s nothing better and you wake up just full of the joys.

Speaker 4: Yep. Exactly. So some pieces are really starting to fit together. Yeah.

Speaker 4: So I decided next week I had to learn more about testosterone. It seemed weird to me that this hormone that I\'d always heard caused fights seems to be important for heart health in men.

Speaker 4: So the following week comes around and my first research question of the day was, why does testosterone make men aggressive? And I could see very quickly not doing anything fancy, just sitting and reading studies on PubMed. I could see within about an hour that testosterone does not make men aggressive.

Speaker 4: That\'s an urban myth. In fact, there are actually reasons to believe that testosterone probably has a calming effect on men and boys. So knowing that testosterone wasn\'t bad, my next question was, why is it associated with better heart health in males? Five years on, I can tell you there are lots of specific reasons why testosterone is associated with better heart health in males.

Speaker 4: But what I found really interesting at the beginning of my journey is the more I looked into studies on heart health and testosterone levels, the more I started to bump into studies on testosterone levels and male mental health. Because multiple studies have found that on average, men who are depressed seem to have much lower levels of testosterone than men who are not depressed.

Speaker 4: And as I looked into that, I found this wasn\'t just middle aged men. This was. All different age groups that I looked into, and the more I explored the links between low testosterone and male mental health, the more I started to bump into studies on suicide and testosterone levels. Specifically, multiple studies have found that lower testosterone levels in men appeared to be linked to stronger thoughts about suicide, more frequent suicide attempts and more aggressive methods.

Speaker 4: Now when I learned this, I was very interested because in the UK and Irelands today, the single biggest killer of men from the age of 18 to the age of 50 is sadly suicide. And suicide and depression in men both appeared to be linked to having a low level of testosterone. But the biggest killer of men over the age of 50 in the UK and Ireland state and the biggest killer of men overall worldwide is currently heart disease.

Speaker 4: Now, heart disease, heart attack, heart failure, and high blood pressure in men are all associated with, and in many cases predicted by having a low level of testosterone. Now after heart disease, the next biggest killer of men in the UK and Ireland is cancer. The most likely cancer that men will be diagnosed with his prostate cancer.

Speaker 4: And you can probably guess what I\'m gonna say here, can\'t you? Multiple studies have found that. One of the factors associated with prostate cancer, specifically aggressive prostate cancer, appears to be having a low level of testosterone. And so I always start with this story because for a couple of reasons.

Speaker 4: One is, I know categorically that what we are talking about here is correlation and not causation. I understand that, but what I could see very early on is it seemed to me that low testosterone in men was a sign of problems, which I\'d never been educated about, even though I was a 29-year-old man at the time.

Speaker 4: But the other thing that I could see is that this story had completely flipped what I thought male mental health was all about. Because I started out with assumptions that I\'d never really questioned ideas like testosterone\'s bad, and men just need to talk. And pretty soon I could see, hold on a minute, testosterone isn\'t bad.

Speaker 4: It appears to be a really important marker for health and wellbeing in the men we care about. Unfortunately, this is something no one really tells men, and there\'s actually stigma associated with testosterone that prevents us from finding out this useful information when we need it. And the other thing I could see is that it seemed too simplistic, that idea I used to have that men just need to talk.

Speaker 4: Yes, of course talking is vital for everyone, but no amount of talking would address a problem like a low testosterone level. There appeared to be a lot more to it than that alone.

Speaker 3: You said an awful lot there, Ryan, and I\'m just gonna unpick a couple of bits and pieces.

Speaker 3: I have had various conversations with my son and other men on the topic of the use of testosterone in bodybuilding, for example.

Speaker 3: So can you bring that into that conversation as well? Because I know in young men at the moment, there is a lot of interest in. Boosting one\'s testosterone, but not in a natural way.

Speaker 4: Yeah, I think there is I think that there is always going to be interest in testosterone from men. That\'s not going anywhere.

Speaker 4: But what I think\'s useful about this is if we understand. Why low testosterone is so prevalent now and why testosterone levels are declining in men in the Western world, then we can also understand how to reverse engineer that and boost testosterone levels. Now, some people may need to take testosterone to have a healthy level of testosterone.

Speaker 4: The only thing is I have to be honest and say I haven\'t really met any of those people with some lifestyle changes. I have seen some incredible changes in testosterone levels, and I believe that. I\'ll explain why first and foremost, which is the reason why low testosterone is associated with all these biggest killers of men is not \'cause testosterone\'s magic.

Speaker 4: And if we take testosterone, it solves a problem. The reason is because testosterone in men is actually a marker for metabolic health. And so low testosterone levels in men are a sign that men have poor metabolic health. That\'s why in the debate around taking it versus making it, I think first and foremost men need to be educated, is they know how to make more testosterone levels.

Speaker 4: The other thing that\'s really important is because it is possible to make more testosterone quite simply with some lifestyle changes. It\'s important that we try that for a few months first. Because otherwise we could end up taking testosterone and not actually addressing the issue. If you make some of the lifestyle changes, we are probably about to talk about and testosterone levels don\'t improve.

Speaker 4: If you have low testosterone, now is definitely the time to reach out and get some help. \'cause there could be something more serious there. So first and foremost, it\'s about lifestyle factors,

Speaker 3: So let\'s talk about some of those lifestyle factors because I think it would be very helpful for our audience to understand that.

Speaker 3: In the sense of, you are not a medically qualified person, but you\'ve done an awful lot of investigation around this. Tell me what you found out.

Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that\'s a really nice way to frame it, which is, just so everyone knows, I am not medical. I have no intention of ever becoming medical as a coach and somewhat of an enthusiast.

Speaker 4: What I\'m interested in is really practical lifestyle changes we can make that are nice and easy, nice and safe, and are gonna have a really. Effective, make a really effective difference. So that\'s what I\'m really interested in and everything I talk about when it comes to testosterone, this is five years on from starting to understand and read the research around it.

Speaker 4: But I can now also combine it from my experience working with hundreds of men. Across thousands of coaching calls and seeing lots of testosterone tests before and after changes. Now, when I started out my journey, I wasn\'t actually optimistic \'cause I\'ve dream about you, but I\'d always heard that the biggest factor when it comes to testosterone levels in men is age.

Speaker 4: And I had always heard that once men get to about 30, testosterone levels start to fall off a cliff. So I wasn\'t really optimistic because I can change a lot, but I can\'t change my age. Can I un, unless you know something, I don\'t. Adam?

Speaker 3: No, but. Again, it\'s a very interesting point that you make. That\'s many men are considered to be very virile and able to reproduce well into their seventies and eighties.

Speaker 3: So I would directly correlate that with capability as much as whatever those people are doing that I could mention a few of those people in the public eye perhaps, but go ahead.

Speaker 4: So our biggest factors when it comes to testosterone production are lifestyle factors. I\'m gonna give you what, in my experience, are the top five, and I\'m gonna put them in descending order.

Speaker 4: So we\'re gonna start with the single most important. The biggest factor and the main key ingredient for healthy level of testosterone is what we eat. The biggest difference between testosterone levels in men comes down to what they eat. Now it\'s all well and good for people to say eat a healthy diet, but when it comes to testosterone, what does that actually mean?

Speaker 4: What is a healthy diet when it comes to testosterone?

Speaker 4: So to maintain healthy testosterone levels or boost testosterone levels, men need a diet that is based on what I would refer to as real food. This is opposed to processed food. And the reason for that is because what we want to increase testosterone levels is we want to avoid carbohydrates that raise our blood sugars significantly.

Speaker 4: And so if we are eating a diet that is low in carbohydrates, then it\'s quite natural that we\'re gonna eat more natural fats. And that is the exact kind of diet that really significantly and quickly increases testosterone levels in men. So what I\'m talking about here, just so we\'re all clear, is something like a low carbohydrate diet.

Speaker 4: Or perhaps a ketogenic diet if you really want to boost testosterone very quickly. And people are often surprised when I put diet at the top of the list. But right at the very beginning of my journey, I decided to in 2020, a few different studies came out following men with different levels of testosterone, small groups of men who followed low carbohydrate or ketogenic diets for about 12 weeks.

Speaker 4: And they all saw really significant increases in testosterone levels. So I decided I\'m gonna do that myself and measure my testosterone levels and, what do we call it? An n equals one study. So I was gonna do one of those. So I was the N And what I did is, beginning of my journey, my testosterone levels were about 20 nanomoles per liter.

Speaker 4: So a little over average for healthy men in the uk I was doing everything else right? So I expected that. About eight weeks in, I\'d had a small increase in my morning testosterone levels. Nothing to write home about. It was not as big as the studies I\'d read, and I just thought that\'s because I already have quite good metabolic health.

Speaker 4: , All my other markers were in the right place, but I carried on doing a low carbohydrate diet because I just felt so good. I was so much more productive in the afternoons. I had more focus. I used to be covered in eczema. I didn\'t have it anymore. So I decided let\'s carry on with this low carb, hydrate diet, and eight months after I started my testosterone levels.

Speaker 4: We\'re then regularly around 30 m per liter. So to put that in context, average median, average testosterone levels for men in the Western world today who are healthy under the age of 40 are around 18.4. And every man I\'ve worked with who\'s gone on the same journey of focusing on real food, low carbohydrate, natural fats.

Speaker 4: Their testosterone levels just keep going up until they rest around 13 animals per liter, which I suspect is the kind of testosterone levels that were very normal in men before the recent dietary guidelines were introduced in the late seventies in the US and the early eighties in the uk.

Speaker 3: That\'s fascinating.

Speaker 3: And having followed your program quite closely, that was the one thing that I found the hardest thing to do, and I think I said to you at the time. I appreciate a low carb ketogenic diet. Might well be good. I was pretty happy with where my testosterone levels were and being a little bit older than yourself, just north of 50.

Speaker 3: I thought that was okay. But I do recognize, and I will say to all of our audience that I also have worked alongside other people who\'ve tried this and have had very positive responses to it. And, for a very broad. Broad understanding carbs includes things like potatoes, bread, bananas, I think, are one of the most enormous ones that you mentioned, weren\'t they?

Speaker 3: What else should we be thinking about in carbs?

Speaker 4: So it is really useful that we\'re having this conversation about exact foods. Of course, this is generalized information. We still want people to speak, to get expert advice from someone who knows them, like their nutritionist, their dietician.

Speaker 4: We all know that. Okay. But let\'s talk general, as you said. When we are talking about carbohydrates in these conversations, anything that breaks down into glucose and raises our blood sugar levels.

Speaker 4: So a nice example of this would be, there was a gentleman called Steve, who attended my workshop, hack Your Health, let\'s say over six months ago.

Speaker 4: Steve only came along because he wanted to boost his testosterone levels. Now he had some other health issues as well at the same time. So Steve attended Hack Your Health. The next day he decided he was gonna swap his normal breakfast, which he\'d been having for years, which was porridge, raisins, and a banana.

Speaker 4: He decided to swap that for a low carbohydrate breakfast, which let\'s talk about what it was. It was salmon, avocado, and cream cheese. Now, normally at 11 o\'clock, he would begin taking his blood pressure medication for the day, but \'cause his blood pressure stayed in the normal range. He called his doctor.

Speaker 4: Of course, you gotta be in touch with your doctor and his doctor said if your blood pressure\'s in the normal range. Then today, don\'t take the blood pressure medication when he hasn\'t actually taken that blood pressure medication since four weeks after changing what he ate two meals a day. He was no longer type two diabetic.

Speaker 4: And after months of conversations with the NHS about his low testosterone levels. Once he started having a low carbohydrate diet based on real food, his testosterone levels just started to rise. Actually, they doubled in the first 10 days after he changed what he was eating. So he had a very different starting place to me.

Speaker 4: But the exact same thing happened in his body, which was his blood sugars became really normal and his testosterone just kept going up. And we know as well that even if you don\'t have chronic health conditions. There are studies. For example, in one study, a group of men drank 75 grams of glucose.

Speaker 4: In a liquid solution. So that\'s less than you get in two medium-sized bottles of Lucozade and they averaged a 25% reduction in testosterone levels over the following two hours. That was men who were healthy and men who had symptoms of insulin resistance. So regardless of your overall health status, it appears that carbohydrates reduce testosterone levels.

Speaker 3: So you\'ve talked about food. What other things can we do to improve our testosterone levels?

Speaker 4: Really lovely question. So there\'s four other big things. So the biggest difference between individuals testosterone levels are gonna be the diet that they\'re on. Now let\'s talk about the day-to-day variants that we could experience in our life.

Speaker 4: The next biggest factor I think is sleep. And that\'s because mayos are actually on a 24 hour hormonal cycle. It appears that testosterone rises with each hour of sleep and decreases with each waking hour. And there\'s one analysis that seems to suggest that each single missed hour of sleep might temporarily lower testosterone in men by roughly the equivalent of 12 years of aging.

Speaker 3: Gosh.

Speaker 4: Yes, that\'s what I thought when I saw it. Now don\'t get me wrong, I\'m not saying that would be catastrophic. I\'m only saying when you compare the two amounts, and I think that\'s really interesting to know because we always hear that the biggest factor when it comes to low testosterone is aging, and yet a single hour of missed sleep seems to influence testosterone more than 12 years of aging, I think.

Speaker 4: Hello. By focusing on age, we are looking in the wrong place when it comes to low testosterone in men. So sleep is the second biggest factor.

Speaker 3: Is the quality of the sleep important as well, Ryan, because I go to bed and recently I would say I\'ve had quite a few disturbed nights, so I might wake a couple of times, but the next day I do feel rested.

Speaker 3: Generally, I\'m just aware that I\'ve been up, gone to the toilet and I\'ve managed to get back to sleep. I never opened my eyes by the way. I always keep my eyes shut. Nice. I\'m staggering around trying not to hit beds and doors and wake up my wife, but that\'s what I do.

Speaker 4: So that\'s a really interesting question, especially for those who might, for example, do shift work or something like that.

Speaker 4: How do we make it work? Unfortunately, there\'s a real lack of quality studies, I think, into sleep and testosterone levels. But from what I have seen and my experience working with men as well, when it comes to their testosterone levels, it seems to be uninterrupted sleep that matters. So we\'re talking quality, sleep uninterrupted.

Speaker 4: Then it, if you or someone that you care about is working shifts at the moment, it doesn\'t seem to matter what time of day that sleep has achieved. I know that shift work is challenging for our bodies in many ways. It\'s also not going anywhere. It\'s essential. Modern economies don\'t work without certain people dedicating themselves and doing shift work, but at the same time, wherever we get that sleep, if you\'re doing shift work, you have to focus on getting that sleep still.

Speaker 4: It\'s very important, and unfortunately, there are many reasons why low testosterone actually causes worse quality sleep. So there\'s a bit of a vicious cycle here, which is important for men to address if they\'re getting poor sleep.

Speaker 3: Okay, so you\'ve talked about food. You\'ve talked about sleep. A couple of other things.

Speaker 3: Three, four, and five, what are they?

Speaker 4: Exercise.

Speaker 3: Okay.

Speaker 4: Specifically, I think the NH S\'S recommendations that every adult should get 150 minutes of moderate exercise a week plus two resistance sessions. I think that\'s right. When

Speaker 3: you say moderate exercise, is it enough for me to be walking my three dogs three times a day or is it above a certain threshold?

Speaker 4: So it depends, and it depends on your fitness. Moderate intensity exercise is anything you are doing where you can still talk but you wouldn\'t be able to sing. And you might listen to me and think Ryan, you clearly can\'t sing. I\'ve , heard your speaking voice and you\'re right, but you couldn\'t get the words out if you were singing.

Speaker 4: So depending on your fitness level, it\'s gonna be different for different people. For some people that could be brisk walking. But for some people who are more used to walking and used to running, maybe brisk walking, wouldn\'t cut it and they\'d actually need to go for a jog or a run. And if you actually push yourself to the point where you can\'t walk in full sentences anymore, that\'s vigorous intensity exercise.

Speaker 4: And about 75 minutes a week is about. As efficient and as effective as 150 minutes a week of moderate intensity exercise. And there was a meta-analysis about two years ago, which seems to suggest that once you get to 150 minutes of exercise, a week exercise may be around one and a half times more effective than CBT talking therapy and maybe one and a half times more effective than antidepressants when it comes to treating depression, stress and anxiety.

Speaker 4: Now, don\'t get me wrong. That takes nothing away from the effectiveness of CBT talking therapy, and it takes nothing away from the effectiveness of antidepressants, but it does put it in perspective and it\'s very possible. If you have a friend that goes to see their doctor today because they\'re feeling depressed, your friend might leave that appointment with a referral for talking therapy and a prescription antidepressants just like Brad did.

Speaker 4: But your friend might not yet know that the most effective thing they can do is something that has no waiting list, no lead times, no cost. It\'s to put on some comfortable shoes and be physically active for 150 minutes a week or 20 minutes a day. So if we have real food, sleep, exercise, would you like number four?

Speaker 3: I would. Ryan, tell us more.

Speaker 4: Vitamin D three. So you will hear people saying at the moment on podcast vitamin D three, it\'s not actually vitamin, it is actually a hormone. That\'s not correct. It is both a vitamin and a hormone depending on how your body\'s using it and its state at the time. But D three is required for lots of processes in our bodies.

Speaker 4: One of those is it seems to play a role in the production of testosterone levels, and it\'s been found that for men who have low levels of D three and low testosterone, supplementing D three can improve testosterone levels. So how do we make, or how do we get D three? It\'s made, yes, it\'s made in your skin when you\'re exposed to safe sunlight.

Speaker 4: I think UVB sunlight, but I don\'t pretend to be an expert in that. And so when it comes to making D three, what\'s important to know is your body\'s brilliant at it. During the summer months, you probably just need around 10 minutes of midday sun for a healthy level of D three. But during the winter months in Europe, you would probably need around two hours of midday sun.

Speaker 4: Many of us can\'t get that \'cause we\'re gonna be. Indoors working our jobs, which are also important for our mental health and wellbeing. So our NHS and lots of healthcare providers recommend many people supplement D three throughout those winter months. Important for us to know. D three is fat soluble and it seems from a couple of studies that you need to have it in a meal containing at least 25 grams of fat.

Speaker 4: And if you ask me, it should be natural fat.

Speaker 3: So what kind of foods give us more vitamin D three.

Speaker 4: So D three is actually one of the best dietary ways to get it\'s from wild fatty fish. Okay, and notice the word wild in there, not farmed fish, because fish make it when they\'re exposed to sunlight.

Speaker 4: They also store it in a vitamin form, which means when we eat it, not only are we eating loads of really healthy fats, but we are also taking that D three \'cause it\'s with the fat, it\'s easier for our body to absorb as well. So things like wild salmon, things like wild mackerel, those kind of foods are really nice natural sources of D three.

Speaker 3: That\'s good. I\'m reassured by that and I\'m reminded of all those things as well. So there was one more thing that you haven\'t mentioned, Brian.

Speaker 4: Sobriety. It\'s time without alcohol. Now there\'s some evidence that each individual alcoholic drink made temporarily reduced testosterone levels was in men by roughly the equivalent of six years of aging.

Speaker 4: And we know that long-term studies as well. Cross-sectional studies show that heavy drinking men have very low levels of testosterone, and it seems to take a while for that to recover. And so there are key ingredients. And I remember when I first made that list of key ingredients, I wrote \'em down in front of me and I looked at it and I remember thinking, oh crap.

Speaker 4: You know what? I knew Brad and I know that, yeah. He did all the things we tell men in crisis to do. He reached out for help. He went to see his doctor. He attended talking therapy. He took antidepressants, and he called his mom every night and told her how he was feeling. But I realized that. No one seemed to have noticed that Brad was spending all of his time at work and always working on the next big project, and I realized that actually real food, sleep, exercise, sunlight and sobriety, they just weren\'t on Brad\'s list of priorities.

Speaker 4: And I came to realize they weren\'t on mine at the time either. And I started to believe that sometimes it\'s trying to be a man that kills a lot of men.

Speaker 3: Wow. That\'s a statement. What is a man?

Speaker 3: That\'s a very big question, but on the point of sobriety, it\'s something that\'s come up in many conversations I\'ve had on this podcast, but it\'s something that you\'ll be aware of not having drunk for nearly six years myself now as a result of a life changing experience and rugby tour with my son, which I\'ll probably talk about another time.

Speaker 3: That in itself was possibly one of the most impactful things that I\'ve ever experienced in my life. Not only the worst of times, but the best of times that directly came outta that. And many of my friends will say that I\'m evangelical about it, but I\'m so pleased that you\'ve mentioned and referenced sobriety as being.

Speaker 3: One of those key factors because we just make better decisions when we\'re sober, don\'t we? We don\'t do stupid deed. We don\'t eat rubbish. We don\'t expose ourselves to risk in the same way that people do when they are continually doing that, nevermind the damage it\'s doing to our liver, our vital organs, the pressure it\'s putting on our entire systems.

Speaker 3: I\'d love you just to talk a little bit more about that, if you wouldn\'t mind.

Speaker 4: Like you have been sober for. Let me think. My last day\'s drinking was the last day of 2018, and I think when it comes to time about alcohol, so just so we\'re clear, I wanna talk about sobriety in connection to testosterone levels.

Speaker 4: I don\'t necessarily mean that a man has to never drink, but it\'s the only word in the English language for having time off. And those periods of alcohol are really important. I think when it comes to sobriety, true sobriety, like not drinking, what people tend to do is they tend to focus on the small tactical advantages and sometimes miss the big strategic advantage of not drinking, which you just made reference to, because people focus on oh, no hangover.

Speaker 4: I\'m not gonna do silly things on nights out, those kind of things. But actually I think the way I see it is something different that I never would\'ve expected before I stopped drinking. Let\'s say, let\'s hypothesize that a sober person, the decisions they make are 1% better than a drunk person or someone who\'s had a drink.

Speaker 4: Now, we probably know that they might be several times better, but let\'s say that sober people make decisions that are 1% better than drunk people right now. Add up all the decisions you\'ve made in the last six years. And I, that is the strategic advantage of not drinking, which is if every little decision and choice is 1% better, what a massive compounding effect it has.

Speaker 4: And I believe it changes the trajectory of people\'s lives.

Speaker 3: I couldn\'t agree with you more, and I think the other aspect of that is worth sharing as well is the unlocking capability of brainpower focus and attention that we can then enable. Forward in our future selves as well.

Speaker 4: Yep. I a hundred percent agree with that.

Speaker 4: I like that term future self. I\'m a big fan of that term.

Speaker 3: I\'ve heard it a few times and I not only look in the rear view mirror at my own self and my own experience when you\'re talking about Brad, I also had, some really challenging mental health. Issues around 2008 and oh nine, and many of the things you described in Brad were things that I was doing that were negative to me at the time, and I couldn\'t see them.

Speaker 3: And I was on antidepressants and I was having talking therapy, but the other aspects of my life were not serving me. And it was exactly aligned to what you\'ve described in your knowledge of Brad and what he was doing at the time. Externally, it looks like you\'re flying, you\'ve got the job title, you\'ve got the.

Speaker 3: House. You\'ve got the family, you\'ve got the car, you\'ve got all those things, the external trinkets that people think equate to success. But translating that forward into my future self, 15, 16 years later, I realized that none of that mattered. What mattered was what was inside. Not the external stuff. It was the intrinsic things.

Speaker 3: It\'s the things that get you outta bed in the morning. It\'s your motivation. It\'s making sure that you are the best possible parent to demonstrate to your children. And you will know that Ryan, being a young parent now yourself. And I\'d love to ask you that with question with regards to Max, and what kind of a father that translates to for you.

Speaker 4: .

Speaker 4: I\'ve always been a bit excited about being a dad actually, and I know that I\'m not saying everyone should be or has to be, and I know that I\'m in a fortunate position in being able to have a child when I decided I wanted to have a child. But yeah, it\'s been the most amazing journey.

Speaker 4: I can also say that I\'m told it is quite a normal thing for people to say, oh, I\'ve read a study that when people have babies their testosterone levels drop and therefore, therefore we get that all the time, don\'t we? And then people say something that\'s totally unrelated to the evidence they\'ve just read.

Speaker 4: Therefore, nature must reduce testosterone levels in new dads to make them better dads. Actually going through it myself, I hypothesized that the reduction in testosterone levels. After member become fathers for the first time, it\'s probably lack of sleep. And that\'s now what I really think it is.

Speaker 4: But I suppose you have to know first and foremost that sleep is a really big factor for testosterone production in order to be attuned to it. And yeah I\'ve found that actually by doing the things we spoke about, maintaining as much as we can. \'cause I\'ve run a little experiment \'cause I managed to keep everything except my sleep pattern.

Speaker 4: And I still have much healthier levels of testosterone than even men in their twenties that I work with. And I\'m 35, you could say. Ryan, you\'re 35, you\'re not 70. That\'s correct. But there are also men I\'ve worked with who are in their seventies who have levels of testosterone. They\'re twice as high as men in their twenties, but I can tell.

Speaker 4: Just from speaking to them talking about lifestyle, they are focusing on these things. So yeah, that\'s why I don\'t use terms like male menopause or andropause. \'cause menopause is irreversible and an inevitable part of aging and low test. Australia in many instances is not. It is all to do with, as we get older, we become more sensitive to lifestyle choices.

Speaker 4: And so yes, becoming a dad for the first time became a little experiment for me.

Speaker 3: Congratulations on being a father and i\'m sure you\'re a wonderful role model To Max.

Speaker 3: Ryan, I wanted to talk about the Monday morning men\'s father as well, because it\'s something that I have found in working with you in the last year that has been.

Speaker 3: Again, one of those really impactful things. Checking in on a Monday morning, setting objectives, holding one another to account. Can you tell the, tell our audience a little bit more about that, the rationale behind it and why you do that, and what the timing of it means to everyone that comes along?

Speaker 4: . Monday Morning Men\'s Club is a, we could call it a peer support group, but it\'s more accurate to say it\'s a peer accountability group. That I started in November, 2022, off the back of some research I read, which made me think that one of the reasons why the coaching that I was doing was working so was because it was giving men structure in their life.

Speaker 4: And I wondered what if we could build more structure and accountability in between coaching sessions? And what I found with the Monday morning men\'s club, the rules are simple. You turn up at 7:00 AM online at 7 0 1, the room is locked. And so if you are late, you can\'t attend that week. That was introduced because people coming late was very disruptive, and I noticed once we locked the room at 7 0 1, people were five minutes early.

Speaker 4: It was amazing. But the questions are simple. It\'s all around. Accountability. So the questions are, number one, what were your goals for last week and did you achieve them? Number two, what\'s the best thing you did last week? Number three, your biggest lesson or top tip from last week. Number four, what are your goals for this week?

Speaker 4: And number five, what\'s the first thing you\'re gonna do after this meeting? We always end the meeting by seven 30, and what I\'ve found is. It seems to be especially beneficial from men who perhaps don\'t have the structure and accountability in their life. Maybe they operate their own business. Maybe they\'re investors, maybe they\'re unemployed, looking for a job, that kind of thing.

Speaker 4: It seems to be really beneficial in building that structure around men. And then there\'s the Tough 21 Protocol, which is a really important coaching tool that I use. Can I go into what that is? Adam?

Speaker 3: I really would love you to talk about that, just. Just before you go onto that, can you just talk about the five areas that we talk about also on that Monday morning?

Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 4: So back at the beginning of my journey, I could see that yes, testosterone\'s important. But there\'s clearly so much more to our mental health and wellbeing than one single hormone. Of course. And if you are listening to me thinking that, I do know that just I find conversation around testosterone, a brilliant hook for getting men interested in hormonal health, mental health, physical health, metabolic health.

Speaker 4: It\'s so important. We\'re missing a trick by not talking more openly about testosterone. Testosterone\'s a brilliant hook to get men motivated to understand more about their bodies and brains. But I believe there are five dimensions to male mental health and what I could see a few months, probably about six months into the research I was doing, is that the key issues for men today appeared to be one is poor physical health.

Speaker 4: That\'s the reason why low testosterone is linked to all those bad outcomes \'cause. Low testosterones, a sign of poor physical health, low social economic status, a lack of security impulsivity, and a lack of purpose. They seem to be the driving factors behind the issues that disproportionately affect males for various different biological, social, and economic reasons.

Speaker 4: So I wondered what if I could create. A preventative, proactive, practical framework that I could follow in my own life. I wanted it to have a cool name. So I called it the Alpha Framework. It just sounded cool at the time, but I had no idea that years later it\'d be used by brilliant organizations. It\'d be used by international schools, be used by NHS trusts in some instances, practitioners within those trusts.

Speaker 4: And yeah, I created this framework. The different dimensions were, one was I referred to as achieving recognition, which is a method of goal setting that identifies what is in the way for men to help them live in line with their own definition of success. So that\'s achieving recognition. Looking after body of mind was gonna be about having a lifestyle that is very.

Speaker 4: Complimentary to testosterone. So a lifestyle that would support naturally healthy testosterone levels. Protecting the cave is about financial and relationship security, and specific things that we need to do to maintain those elements. Having adventures is about understanding and balancing the dopamine in our life.

Speaker 4: So we have enough variety for a healthy level of dopamine, but we also don\'t get sucked into distractions and addictions, things that disrupt our dopamine system. And the final A and Alpha is able to serve, which is the things we do for a sense of. Purpose is the things we do to feel useful. So the goal setting in the Monday morning, men\'s club is structured around those things.

Speaker 4: And I think that\'s a, it\'s definitely a big part of the coaching I do, because when I have my first coaching call with men, I talk them through the framework that takes about an hour and 15 minutes. And after that, nothing is off the table because we\'ve already spoken about all these practical things we can do and signs we can look for.

Speaker 4: It\'s very engaging. And then the remaining 45 minutes we have the conversation is. Blown wide open, and we can go anywhere because we\'ve demonstrated that there is this framework we can use in our lives. So there we go. It\'s all about prevention, but that\'s the framework that I\'ve been using in my coaching for the last five years,

Speaker 3: and it works.

Speaker 3: Believe me, as someone who hasn\'t missed one of those Monday mornings, even when I\'ve been on holiday for the last year, I set it as the. Stake in the ground for the beginning of the week and I join my nine o\'clock meetings and I\'m absolutely flying by them. I set my clock for 6 45. I\'m always there at 6 55 and I usually have an online chat with whoever else is in there early.

Speaker 3: And this morning I had a very pleasant surprise \'cause my best mate and best man was on that Monday morning men\'s club for the first time. That\'s Jim. Hello Jim. So I interrupted you slightly. Sorry. You were continuing talking about. Various other aspects of the program before I asked you about those five components.

Speaker 3: Can you continue with that?

Speaker 4: Yeah, the other thing that I\'m really excited to talk about it \'cause I don\'t actually talk about it very often. I think some of it\'s an element of an imposter syndrome in terms of not wanting to overstep not really wanting to overstep and make claims that, are beyond what the program can do.

Speaker 4: But a few years ago, I put another structure in place for a man that I was supporting, which I believe for various different reasons was gonna be very beneficial to him. And it was to help him make some changes in his business. And after a few weeks, he said, this is the strangest thing. He said, yes, I made the changes in my business.

Speaker 4: But he said, you need to understand. My mental health and my energy and my enthusiasm has transformed. And I was thinking that\'s strange. I dunno why that would happen. So I carried on doing this very structured coaching approach and after a few months I realized, okay, this is no coincidence. What seems to be happening here is it\'s really helping men have accountability and a sense of progress.

Speaker 4: And that in turn seems to be really improving their mental health and their sense of wellbeing. And the way it works is. It\'s 21 days, you have to check in every single day. And on that check-in, call at 7:00 AM You have to confirm that one. You went to bed sober last night. Two, you achieved your daily goal yesterday.

Speaker 4: And three, say what your goal is for today. That\'s the tough 21 protocol. So I\'m not gonna pretend this is a study or anything. It isn\'t. But I have been collecting BDI two depression scores. From the men who are happy with me, having those figures and testosterone levels for men who\'ve taken part in the program, and on average there is an enormous reduction in BDI two depression scores.

Speaker 4: It\'s okay for me to say. I think, as I said, this is not a study, but what we tend to see, and what I believe men can expect from doing this check-in for 21 days is normally something like a 60 to 75% reduction in depression scores. From 21 days of a one minute check-in call. Now, there\'s some areas of ambiguity here because throughout that 21 days, there are also workshops on goal setting and a workshop on metabolic health hack your health, which I told you about Steve attending.

Speaker 4: So I don\'t yet know how much of it comes from the check-ins and how much comes from the workshops. But I do know that other coaches who are using this approach, they\'ve taken what I\'m doing and they\'re doing it in their own practices. They\'re saying the same thing, which is, wow. It\'s just these morning check-ins are having a massive difference.

Speaker 4: So I think it\'s very exciting because it\'s quite easy to roll it out. One coach can actually very easily administer the tough 21 protocol to, Hey, you could do it with a dozen people if you wanted. There\'s no reason why not. It\'s very efficient, time-wise. But the results have been really spectacular in terms of lifestyle changes.

Speaker 3: And I want to say from a personal point of view, that 21 days was so good and so powerful for me that I wanted to continue. And so we continued it for up to 90 days, didn\'t we? And then at around day 75 ish, I felt like I didn\'t need it anymore. And I think I said to you, how long have we got there?

Speaker 3: Because I completely lost track. And you said, oh, about 10 days. And I said, I think I\'m ready. When I got to that weekend, just before the 90th day, I said to you, I think I\'m okay. I think I\'m gonna have the weekend off on the Friday. I said, I think I\'m good. But I will say it absolutely does all the things that you explain.

Speaker 3: It supercharges motivation, it sets deep ingrained objectives and power and motivation that I didn\'t know I could unlock in myself, and it hasn\'t left me. It stayed with me. As you all know, one of the reasons why we\'re talking today, this podcast came directly out of the work that we did together, so I can only thank you for that.

Speaker 3: Ryan, one other very quick question before we move on to the quickfire round.

Speaker 3: I\'m also aware that you, in the course of the last year have not only had it some with your dear wife, but you\'ve also been writing a book. Perhaps you could just tell our audience about the book because I\'m sure that there would be a lot of interest in that.

Speaker 4: If anyone\'s thinking of writing a book, don\'t do it. It\'s so much work, first and foremost. Yes. I have a book. It is How to Help Him, the book for women who are Worried about a man, and there\'s a couple of reasons why I actually wrote a book for women, despite the fact that all my work is with men.

Speaker 4: Obviously as a public speaker, the message goes out to everyone, but my coaching work is with men. There\'s a couple of reasons why I wrote a book for women, which I\'m happy to share with you. I think it\'s important that I do. The other thing though is what I\'m really proud of about the book is that throughout the process, after it was written and between edits and things, I actually hired four different experts in different fields to facts check the book.

Speaker 4: And it was really interesting. It was strange. It made me quite anxious looking into a document and seeing someone\'s feedback on my thoughts. \'cause some of them, you know what it\'s like when you believe something, it starts to become part of your identity over time. So to get you\'re wrong, look at this.

Speaker 4: This study contradicts it. You missed this. That was a very interesting, brilliant learning experience. And there were some interesting mistakes in terms of I\'ll give you one example, which was. There was a moment where I included a source. \'cause the book references 340 different sources and there\'s one moment where I said, this study shows.

Speaker 4: I said something like this study shows. Testosterone is not associated with aggression. And my fact checker said, Ryan, this is a study on birds. You\'re reading a study about parakeets. Now I dunno how that happened. I just, when you\'re finding studies online, you don\'t see the cover. But when she showed me the cover of the scientific journal, it had like a parrot on the front.

Speaker 4: I\'m reading a book on birds deducing things about testosterone in humans, but luckily. It\'s very easy. I just swapped that out for another study. But this time using humans. But so little things like that happened along the way, but it was also a massive confidence booster. \'cause there were lots of instances where fact checkers said to me Ryan, can you clarify this?

Speaker 4: And I\'d go back and say, yes. It doesn\'t say in this study, but read that one and that one. And I had quite a few moments where all the different fact checkers at one point said, you\'ve really got a handle on this. This is really exciting, what we were talking about. So that was brilliant. Then why write a book for women?

Speaker 4: I originally tried to write a book for everyone. Then my publisher encouraged me to hand the book to beta readers who\'d read it and provide feedback. And what I found is those who were medical wanted me to go into more depth. And those who weren\'t wanted me to go into less depth. So by going down the middle, I\'d actually written a book for no one.

Speaker 4: So I decided, okay, let\'s make it a book, a practical book that anyone can use in their life. I cut the length of the book in half. It went from 120 to 65,000 words. Then when that went out to beta readers, what I found is the bits in the book that men loved women said, I don\'t like this bit, and the bits that women, like men said, take them out.

Speaker 4: It\'s boring. So I realized I\'ve got to write a book, it seems for either men or women. And then I went back through all my requests for a book over the last two years, and what I found is 90% of those who said, is there a book where I can learn more? Were all women. And when I spoke to some of them, they were all worried about a man in their life.

Speaker 4: So I was like, that\'s who the book is for. So for men, yes, we\'ve got coaching for anyone. I\'ve got talks, but now I\'m in this really lovely position where I could say, look for around 10 pounds, I\'ve actually written a book, fact checked it, and I\'ve backed up with 340 sources. This is what I think you need to know if you\'re worried about a man.

Speaker 4: So I hope it\'s gonna be really useful to lots of people.

Speaker 3: I can\'t wait to read it. Ryan, I think I know a little bit about what might be in it, and some of our audience who\'ve listened today intently will also probably figure that out. But I think what you\'ve probably described is bringing that personal story to the fore and making it your mission to improve the opportunities for success in men and for the women who are associated with those men as well.

Speaker 3: Honestly, enormous. Claude.

Speaker 3: For that, I like to finish with a quick fire around Jo. No. I wonder what is the one piece of advice you would give to your younger self?

Speaker 4: , To my younger self, I would share a quote that I discovered. I wish I discovered it much earlier in life. The quote is by, I believe John a shed. Although there\'s some debate around where this quote came from, but the quote is, A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are for.

Speaker 3: Ooh, I like that. What are the top three qualities you value most when building a team?

Speaker 4: Courage, curiosity and commitment

Speaker 3: rule of three and alliteration. You\'ve nailed it. What is your favorite thing outside of work? Brian?

Speaker 4: I really like. Really like water sports, like wakeboarding kite surfing, that kind of thing. And it\'s really funny \'cause I have this, there\'s two sides of me when it comes to water sports, which is, I\'m always scared. I\'m always scared of getting attached to a kite and it being overpowered and taking me away.

Speaker 4: I\'m always scared of getting cold in the sea. And every time I do it, I\'m always like, that\'s the best day this year. Next year\'s gonna be all about kite surfing wakeboarding. Whatever it is. And then the following year I\'m like, oh, I dunno. That\'s a bit scary. So my favorite thing outside of work is obviously love my family, love my friends.

Speaker 4: They\'re amazing. But I think that\'s an interesting thing to note is I love water sports. They just terrify me.

Speaker 3: Thank you for sharing that. And finally, what is your number one golden rule in life and in business?

Speaker 4: Oh, these are good questions.

Speaker 4: I had a boss. I had a boss who say all the time, the number one rule is Bill early pay late.

Speaker 3: That\'s brilliant. As a business owner, I can really appreciate that way. Yeah. Make sure it\'s not 60 days, keep it under 30. That would be my as well. Exactly. As well. Yeah.

Speaker 4: Unless you\'re a supermarket, then you can get away with whatever you like.

Speaker 3: We\'ve covered so much today, Ryan. This has just been an absolute pleasure to have.

Speaker 3: You tell your story as much as really explain to our audience what it is that as men, we can be doing better to improve our longevity, our mental health, our wellbeing, and reduce the likelihood of, God forbid, suicidality for the women and the people around us, for our friends, for everything, everyone that we come into contact with.

Speaker 3: For any of our audience that would like to reach out to you, what\'s the best way to get in contact with you, Ryan?

Speaker 4: Best way to get in contact with me is through my website, which is the men\'s coach.co.uk. The books available everywhere you\'d expect it to be available. Things like Amazon, Waterstones, Barnes and Noble, and on social media.

Speaker 4: I am at Ryan Park, TMC. However, I can\'t always stay on top of social media messages, so come through my website. It generates an email to me.

Speaker 3: Once again, I\'d really love to thank you for coming on, pharma prescribed today. Ryan, I think you are doing amazing things in mental health and you are honoring your dear friend Brad\'s memory, and I cannot thank you enough for that, for the influence you\'ve had on me and for the influence that I know you will have on the many people that I recommend to work with you as well.

Speaker 3: So thank you once again.

Speaker 4: Thank you, Adam. Thank you, pharma prescribed.