Sarah Browning — The Business Case for Kindness: Why Happier Teams Are 20% More Productive

Adam Walker:I'm Adam Walker, a biometrics consultant, and this is the Pharma Prescribedd podcast, where: leaders, innovators, and hidden voices in healthcare open up. No sound bites, no spin. Just raw insight, one prescription at a time. In an industry driven by: data, protocols and pressure, we rarely pause to ask the human questions.

What drives us? What breaks us? And what truths live behind the titles we wear?

Adam Walker:Sarah Browning is a Kindness Cheerleader and communicator. She believes in the power of kindness and inspires others to believe in it, too. She teaches people to notice kindness in the world around them, because when you see kind, you feel better and when you feel better, you achieve amazing things.

Sarah was inspired to found the transformational Time for Kindness wellbeing program in 2021, after an afternoon of reflection by the River Thames. That day, she realized how important kindness was in bringing hope and positivity to people. With a 25-year career in internal communications and engagement, Sarah uses stories to inspire and teach people to notice kindness in their work and wider life, improving their happiness and their performance.

She believes in the importance of staff wellbeing as a pivotal business measure.

Sarah, it's a pleasure to welcome you to Pharma Prescribed today. For those of our audience who are not familiar with you, who are you and what is the mission you're on?

Sarah Browning:Well, thank you very much for having me. It's great to be here and have this conversation.

I'm there. A conversation about kindness, I can always find the time. I'm always there, so thank you.

Sarah Browning:I am a Kindness Cheerleader!

I work for myself a lot of the time and I figured that if I'm working for myself, I can choose my own job title and Kindness Cheerleader felt very much in my wheelhouse, as it were, because my kind of mission in life has become about helping people to notice that despite what the mainstream media and certain sections of social media would have us believe, there is lots of kindness in the world. We just don't talk about it enough yet. That's my mission to change that and get people noticing. My work is not about toxic positivity. There is also some awful things that go on around the world and there are people who are very, very unkind to each other. But my feeling is always that's not the only story and we need to sort of rebalance this narrative we have about ourselves and our world because otherwise my fear is it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

If all we hear is negativity, all we hear is people treating others badly, then we start to go down that route ourselves thinking: "Well, that's how you're supposed to be" or "that's how I survive" or whatever. Actually, I think that's nonsense. There is lots and lots of kindness and that's where the storytelling element comes in, I guess, as well and we could get into a little bit more of exactly where that came from and how that comes into what I do. But I thought there is lots of kindness in the world. It's really important and it doesn't have to be big and grand. So actually there are lots of stories and lots of little stories really, just kind of moments and there's a whole range of huge things and small things. But there's a lot to work with shall we say, in terms of that kindness. Like, I sort of said to you before, the reason I want people to notice it is because when you see it, you start to feel better and you start to feel more positive and that can only be a good thing!

Adam Walker:Yeah, I think that's a lovely place to start. For anyone who's listening to this, on your jumper it says, "Kindness Matters."

Sarah Browning:It does.

Adam Walker:Which is a lovely ethos and starting point.

Adam Walker:But also just to make reference to the fact that when you and I first met, we were at a Kindness Conference, were we not?

Sarah Browning:Exactly. Right.

Adam Walker:On that particular day, I don't know whether you felt it, but I certainly haven't been to any other Kindness Conference before that point. I felt an awful lot of warmth and positive energy in the room. I think to your point that you've made, that it wasn't toxic positivity, it was definitely sharing tools and learning with other people with that intention. I wonder if you'd just elaborate a little bit more around that.

Sarah Browning:Yeah, absolutely. I think you're absolutely right. That conference was great, wasn't it?

Sarah Browning:I have been to others as well and one of the things that when I talk about kindness, I think people who are perhaps dismissive of it or disbelieving of it, you know, one of the sort of the, the reputational issues, if you like, that kindness has, is it's perceived as weak and fluffy. But actually I disagree with that. I think kindness is powerful, and one of the reasons it's powerful is because it connects us. I think you're absolutely right: at that conference and in a lot of the conversations I have in other groupings, there's a real sense of community, that we all believe in this thing and we know that it's there and that it has a positive, impact on us as individuals and our workplaces, our communities, our world.

So I think that's really important that we sort of stand up against this idea that it's a bit weak, it's a bit fluffy, a bit embarrassing- because that's also something I've come across at times. Some of my work is around building a community of Kindness Ambassadors and The reason I created that was because there was this sense that people were perhaps a bit unsure about speaking about kindness or speaking up about it, or that didn't really have a place. But there is so much academic research now that shows us that actually kindness is strong, it is powerful, it's having a massive impact on individuals and businesses. The conference that you and I were at was at a university talking about kindness and business, wasn't it? It was bringing those things together. So I think for me, I've been doing this work for around about five years-ish explicitly. I think it's probably something I've done for a long time, not necessarily recognising it. But in terms of Time for Kindness, my program, it's about five years. I have noticed in that time that there are more and more people who are speaking up about kindness and it does feel like there's a kind of growing movement, for want of a better word, of people who, believe in kindness and want us to talk about it and want something really positive than that we're being fed, quite frankly, through, as I say, mainstream media and social media in certain areas.

So I think it feels like now is the time to recognise this power and use it for good.

Adam Walker:Yeah.

Adam Walker:Just taking a step back to your background in communications and that translation into this movement that you started in 2021, was there a moment in which you had a eureka experience, or did you just feel that there was something that needed to happen? We all experience things in the public domain. As you say, there is so much bad news out there and it's so uplifting to feel the energy of positive people, but also switching the lens around that, isn't it?

Sarah Browning:Yeah, absolutely, it really is. I guess when I look back, I think, well, I'm a naturally positive person. That's not to say I'm happy and jumping around every single day. I'm not. Things that are going on in the world are frightening, frighten me, too and that, negativity is there. Sometimes it is very easy to get sort of drawn into it. But generally, I am naturally fairly positive and therefore I do notice more positive things around me. Well, let me stop to think, you think: "Is it really 25-plus years?" But it is 25-plus years that I have been working as an internal comms person in some way. Over that time I worked for various different organisations, but I spent a lot of time working for Cancer Research UK, so a big national charity. When I left there, I started working freelance and because my Cancer Research UK in the charity world was my world, that was where I naturally started to be a freelancer. That's where my contacts were, quite honestly, but also was where my heart was very much. So I worked with, initially charities and then broadened that to not-for-profits more generally, so a lot of university work, those kinds of things. So I this, customer base, this kind of niche that, of who I was working with. I always used to say: my clients were people who had visions of a better world. Then to your question about the sort of eureka moment, I was literally sitting on a bench by the River Thames near where I live one day. I'd been out for a bike ride and had a bit of a pause and sat there and that was probably... I think that was late 2020 when I think we were all really, weren't we, having been through the pandemic, I think we were all thinking: "What on earth?" You know, "What's going on? What on earth is happening here?" Just that day, I don't know why, for whatever reason, I just got to thinking about, what was important to me and this phrase of my clients having visions of a better world. I just started to think: "Yeah, but what do you mean, Sarah, by better? What is that?" From there was where I started to think: well: actually kindness is what is important to me and actually I believe there is lots of kindness in the world already. We just don't talk about it. That was sort of the initial moment, I suppose, for me to develop my thinking a bit more, to think: "Well, okay, so if we're not talking about it and it appears that people are perhaps not believing in it or embarrassed or whatever it might be-" What can I do about that?" What do I bring to the party? That's where my comms and my communication skills came in because I thought: well, I'm a communicator, I tell stories. So initially Time for Kindness was really me playing with it, I suppose, myself. My then 13-year-old daughter taught me how to use Instagram because I'd never used Instagram before then. But she taught me how to use it and I just played with it for a year or so, just sharing stories of things that I saw as I went about my daily life. You know, not necessarily huge things. There were people in a supermarket helping somebody get something from a top shelf. That might not have been right then because we were probably still social distancing, weren't we? There are different sort of things that I saw going on around me and then it, Time for Kindness has grown from there really. But that was very much I think one of those examples which, I'm certainly not unique in any ways, but I think quite a few of us perhaps get to a stage where we think: "Okay, so this is what I care about, this is what I can do. How can I bring the two together to make some kind of impact in the world?" I think that's what you've explained to me- that's kind of where your podcast came from, isn't it?

Adam Walker:It's exactly where it came from and when you were describing that, I was thinking about Ikigai and what you're good at-

Sarah Browning:Yes-

What your passion is and what you could potentially be paid for. That was exactly what that spoke to me.

Yeah.

Sarah Browning:With regards to translating that into an organisational sense, I think about random acts of kindness all the time and sometimes I see them and sometimes I don't. Sometimes I can be quite direct with people if I don't think they're being kind. I might call someone out. Whether that's kind or not, I don't really know. But you talked about recognising kindness, but also I think recognising behaviours and there is a language around that, isn't there? In which you can identify whether people are demonstrating those skills and empathy. It's Emotional Intelligence (EI), isn't it? It's empathy for what's coming out their mouth as much as what they're meeting you with.

Sarah Browning:Sarah Browning: Yeah, absolutely and I think it's something else which probably isn't very helpful is we can get drawn into this idea that somebody is either kind or unkind. Actually, that's, not the case. We're all a bit of both. Everything, happens in context as well. So like you say, that thing of kind of empathy and what you're saying and how it's received. I think we can get ourself in such knots that we almost become paralysed and we don't do anything.

Mm-hmm.

So I think, in some of the workshops I run, one of the really interesting parts I find, is so I talk about: what is kindness? There is no single definition of kindness. There are a few different ones that I use and generally they've got fairly similar aspects about: kindness is active, it's positive, there's some kind of intent to do something for someone else or create a positive thing for someone else. So it has all of that, but we often end up having really interesting conversations around what counts as kindness. To be honest, we all have our own personal line on that as well. Quite often what will come up is some of the conversations around certain kind of influencers, as it were, on social media who might do an act and film themselves being kind and is that kind? Does that count or not? Like I said, I think we all have a personal line, as to we think actually the end result is enough, or if it is undermined somehow in terms of it being used for cynical reasons. So I think when it comes to being kind to other people, as you say, in the workplace for example, quite often another reason kindness isn't weak in my view is because it's actually quite hard sometimes, it can be quite difficult to do and particularly in that workplace where we're all busy, we've all got to-do lists, we've got targets, we've got all this stuff going on. Then having the time to pause and think: "okay, what would be the kind thing to do?" It can be quite difficult to carve that out. It can be done, of course it can, but it's more of a, sort of a conscious awareness. I think, of thinking: "right, okay, how am I gonna build this in?" I think the other thing that's quite interesting, you were saying there about you calling people out and how kind is that? I think that depends how you do it. Because then there's another sort of misconception I think around kindness, that it's the same as being nice and it isn't. It's nice to be nice. There's nothing wrong with being nice in that sense. But that is a more surface level, tends to be a, kind of a more surface level thing that's going on, what you're doing. Again, in a workplace context what I talk about is: you need to hold somebody accountable. If they are not delivering their objectives, they're not doing their work, whatever, actually you do need to hold them accountable and that is kind as long as you do it in the right way and you do it in that kind of supportive way. Because if you're not holding them accountable, it isn't kind to set someone up to fail or just to leave someone to fail and flounder. Also, in that sort of context, if you've got somebody in the team who isn't pulling their weight, it's usually the rest of the team members that end up picking up what they're not doing, so actually you're not being kind to them either. So I think it's not a straightforward thing to be kind, but if you're intentional about it, then it can make a massive difference to how we work together and how we interact.

Adam Walker:I agree.

Adam Walker:Just acknowledging that particular point, many of the people that listen to this podcast come from a background like myself in data.

Yeah. They might well at this point be screaming and saying: "Show me, tell me what tangible outcomes you measure that really do demonstrate that this metric works or doesn't, and how."

Sarah Browning:Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. There's a growing body rather of academic research around this that has shown some incredible things and after we've spoken, I can, provide you with some links, to share with your listeners as well. There was a study done at the University of Warwick where they looked at cultures and they had criteria and metrics of what that meant. But what they found was that in those organisations where there was a kindness of culture the employees were happier and happier employees were 20% more productive!

There was another similar one in Canada that might have been 20%. The Warwick one might not be quite as high as 20%, but it was a significant, percentage anyway. There was a measurable in uptick in the productivity. There are more and more studies being done along those lines...

There was another one was done, I think it was by Harvard, where they looked at leaders who, were fostering a kindness culture within their teams and their organisations. What they found was that those leaders who were actively and like I said earlier, it's an intentional thing, but they were actively encouraging and role modeling a kind culture. What they found was that those leaders when it came to having difficult conversations and you're always as a leader at some point gonna have some kind of difficult conversation, probably many, particularly in, in challenging times. They found those, conversations much easier to have. It was because they had this time of building up relationships and the kind of trust with their teams that then the difficult conversations were then on that foundation of that, relationship and so on. So, you know, there are things that, show that it isn't weak, it isn't fluffy, it is a strong business skill and it will give you advantages.

Adam Walker:Thank you for explaining that and that is extremely reassuring.

Adam Walker:When you're talking through that, I was immediately drawn to the thought around some of the best and worst, kindest and least kind places I've worked over many years-

Yeah...

I have worked in plenty of different organisations- Yeah...

Large and small. This is something that I've spoken about on a number of other podcasts, is that there is a cultural element, isn't there? To not just kindness, but actually to workplace culture where people are engaged and valued and that can be-

Yeah...

Embedded in, as I say, in language and in behavior, but also in the softer things around the edges of those organisations. I always come back to my experiences in Denmark and the Danish culture being-

Oh, okay...

That place. I worked for a wonderful pharma company in Copenhagen for nearly three years and in spite of the fact that I commuted there every week and I was really, really exhausted come the end of that three years, what I did learn was just the value of listening to people and the community that was built around simple things like: eating together-

Sarah Browning:Yeah...

Adam Walker:exercising together, taking regular breaks together. We even did, like, stretches. You know?

Sarah Browning:Oh.

Adam Walker:There were stretches, 15 minutes a day of stretching in this particular company, where people would either do planks or what we call penguins. You know, so we'd stand up, many people had standing desks anyway, but we would stand up and we would do various different exercises together-

Sarah Browning:Huh...

Adam Walker:which built that sense of community and understanding of one another. It just resonated as you were saying that-

Yeah...

Because I felt that was a kind culture. Of course it was driven by profit and it was driven by- Putting patients at the heart of everything that we do, and this could be any organisation in any line of work, can't it? But I'm sure you cover all manner of different areas of the spectrum of workplaces.

Sarah Browning:Yeah, absolutely. Gosh, that sounds like a fascinating place to work.

Really interesting culture and I think to pick up on something there you said about the kind of the softer skills. I think that's part of the problem as well. We call it softer and maybe that we should rebrand that as kind of human skills. Because it isn't always easy, but it is like you say- it's that way of kind of being collective and bringing together.

In my internal communications work, I've often worked with organisations who talk about putting the beneficiary or the patient or the client, whoever it is, at the heart of everything they do and those are the kind of the words, almost the words that are on the wall, but the behaviours don't add up, don't quite align.

Often they do, but I think there is something, as you say, about that whole culture kind of cohesive at every level, thing that, sort of approach to running an organisation, which does make a difference. One of the things that really struck me about the conference that you and I met at was one of the business leaders was talking about how we come to think that perhaps profit is a dirty word and it's that's a bad thing. But actually it isn't. It doesn't have to be; it's more that the kind of greed around profit is when things start to deteriorate and become sort of bad, quote, unquote. But really you can make a profit and treat people as human beings within your organisation and out of it. But it's again, it's that coming back to consciously thinking, how do we do these things rather than perhaps following on the way that others have done it traditionally in the past in a very different world and in a very different context. I think that's changed, so the way we run businesses needs to change as well.

Adam Walker:Yeah.

Adam Walker:Just following on from that point, I think you and I both being independent business owners, perhaps our perspective is slightly different because when we go into organisations, we come with our principles and values and we want to try and impart those good behaviours on others. But actually, I don't know whether you've experienced this yourself, but as I've gone into larger organisations, the influence you can have on behaviours is generally smaller. It's definitely tangible. There's no two ways about that. But there is a kind of element of: the larger the company, the harder it is to have influence. Has that been your experience? Maybe you could talk about on that.

Sarah Browning:Yeah. I think it's not impossible. There are some high-profile examples. Nick Graham Alcott, who you've had on one of your conversations, he had some good examples of bigger organisations that, do, that do it well. But I think, with my internal comms and engagement work, what's really interesting is when I can work with organisations that want to learn. Because it is rare that you get an entire business, an entire organisation where everybody is not getting it right and everybody's making a mess. You will often have, as you say, perhaps, like just one or two managers or a local team or whatever, at least that it's starting to do it well. When, internal comms starts to tell those stories and kind of role model but through a storytelling way of: this is how this team are operating and this is what's happening as a result, you can get into a internal comms where, you wouldn't put it quite as bluntly as this, but it's essentially is, look, they're doing this and they're getting this benefit. Are you sure you don't want to play? That can be difficult, particularly if the wider culture is not positive because the ones that are doing well in that kind of, treating each other with kindness and humanity and empathy and so on don't necessarily want to raise their heads above the parapet, because it's not the prevailing this is how we do things. But you can find ways to start, just small, ways to start with, to just tell some of those stories, use some of those examples and then it becomes a bit more of a learning culture to think: "Actually, we could try that. We could, we could see if that would work." Sometimes, of course you get managers and leaders that don't want to do that because of fear, because they, think: "Actually, it might get beyond my control." But again, if you can show that there are examples where that's it's not a negative thing, then little by little it starts to drip, drip feed to others maybe it would be okay.

Adam Walker:Thank you for that.

Adam Walker:One of the things I've learned through doing this podcast and having so many conversations with such fascinating people like yourself is just that there is always a hero story. As a storyteller, you will understand that more than most, I'm sure-

Yes...

I'd really love to hear maybe one of those particular situations and perhaps you can share that with our listeners because impacting change is really difficult and really hard to do. Sometimes, referring back to some of those less successful organisations, or at least in my eyes what I perceive to be less successful, there were issues around staffing and there were metrics that were being measured that were just too much-

Mm-hmm...

They bordered on micromanagement. In your earlier reference to Graham Allcott, he talked about Timpson's a lot, didn't he?

Sarah Browning:Yes.

Adam Walker:You know-

Yeah...

Repurposing people's experiences from many times having been, on the wrong side of the law and then coming back and taking autonomy, leading their own businesses through-

Yeah...

These Timpson stores. I wonder if you could just give us a story around some particular experience where you've implemented some of those changes?

Sarah Browning:Yeah, absolutely.

Sarah Browning:A team that springs to mind that I was actually part of rather than coming in as a consultant where I would say it was a real kind culture. It was as simple as feeling, that we as individuals were also seen as individuals. We worked hard, got a lot of work done, we got a lot of communication out the door. We managed lots of stakeholder relationships. We had measures in terms of what was gonna happen as a result of communication we were doing. But equally, there was always a sense, and I know that this is one of Graham's principles, is people first always and that was being implemented in our team. So for example, there was a particular day when I unexpectedly needed to take time because, my daughter was having a dental issue, phoning me from home in tears, in pain, that sort of thing. My team were just wonderful in terms of rallying round to say: "No, you go. We know what you've got on your to-do list today, but that can wait," or: "I will pick that up. I will make sure that happens." Because we knew each other and we knew that we all were committed, I suppose, to that team, then we would do that, that for each other. This team was already in a time where we were hybrid working, so actually we weren't all in the office together all the time by any means. But what we also did was we had one day a week when we did all go into the office together at the same time and the reason for that was so that we could, a little bit like you were saying with your Danish company I think, we could go for lunch together or we could go for a walk at lunchtime. It was like 15 minutes. We're not talking taking ages to have a big slap-up meal and be out of the office for hours. We just couldn't do that; we had too much work to do. But just those little opportunities to be human with each other made then a big difference. This isn't a specific example necessarily, but it's in this same field. When I run my workshops, one of the things that I get people to do is to think about how are they going to notice more kindness and how are they going to bring more positivity into their life or their workplace from noticing. Something which comes up quite often with teams is they say because part of one of the exercises I do in the workshops is I get them to take just a couple of minutes to tell each other about a recent kindness that they have seen somewhere in the world and the energy and positivity in the room is wonderful-

Mm-hmm.

So quite often what they will say at the end when they're coming up with an action, is they say: "We're gonna start each of our meetings by sharing an example of kindness and that will put us into that positive, upbeat, slightly more energetic frame of mind. We will still have to talk about the difficult sales figures.

Sarah Browning:We will still have to talk about problems with our supply chain. We will still have to talk about all the trickier things. But, so we're not ignoring that, but we are starting those conversations from a more positive, upbeat place and that just frames the conversation in a different way.

Adam Walker:Yeah. That's a lovely example and effectively what it seems like is you're setting a baseline and immediately the thought that came to me and I wrote it down, was starting with the end in mind. Because effectively what you're saying is: "Where do we want to get to and how do we want to achieve that, but what is our starting point and how does that translate?" I really love that example because I can imagine being in that environment and that sounds and feels like a psychologically safe place to work. That sounds like a place I would like to work-

Yeah...

I'm sure many of our- Mm...

Listeners would empathize with that. Because I don't know whether this has been your experience, but certainly you referenced earlier about the pandemic. That created an awful lot of tension and anxiety in grown-up people, never mind children at the time.

Sarah Browning:Yeah.

Adam Walker:I think we've got children-

Yeah...

Of a similar sort of age and my children were both at school at that time. It created enormous tension and anxiety in schools. My wife was a teacher at the time. It created enormous tension for her to be in a school setting when everyone else was locked down and being at-

Yeah...

The forefront of that.

Adam Walker:So I'm just extrapolating that forward because I think when you had that moment in 2021 and you thought about Time for Kindness- We were all really in a challenged head space and place that none of us had ever experienced before.

It really was- Sarah Browning:Yeah...

Adam Walker:to take us back to that time, it was like... It was, it was the only thing I can equate to being in a kind of war setting, where we were watching on the news every day the numbers of people that were dying from COVID and there was so much tension and anxiety in the public domain. There certainly wasn't much kindness and it was all about survival. I think it was survival. Whatever your position is about vaccines, for that first year we were surviving until the vaccines were available. I myself was working COVID vaccines, ironically. So I had kind of an insider's view of what was coming, but I just remember that tension in our family as much as in my friends, in all around us. In the places where we were or weren't working, where we physically were able to travel or not. Those remote opportunities for hybrid working-

Mm-hmm...

And those kind of things. As I say, extrapolating that forward, I can now connect the dots of that and it makes sense that there is a space and a place for kindness in building that future state, isn't there?

Sarah Browning:There is.

I would just like to go back because you just said there was certainly no kindness around at that time and actually I think there was a lot of kindness during COVID. I think you're right, what we saw on the news was the frightening element-

Yeah.

But actually there was a lot of kindness and there was people looking out for their neighbours, you know, people collecting prescriptions for neighbours who were vulnerable and couldn't get there or shopping or just reaching out to friends that they knew were living alone and checking with them and so on and so on... But I think it's a really good example of how easy it is for us to focus only on the negative side of things. That actually, again being intentional about spotting kindness can help to... It doesn't get rid of the tension and the anxiety, don't get me wrong, but it helps us to cope better with it. It helps us, again, to feel more human and more: "Actually, there is some positive here. We're going to be okay. It's gonna be awful and there's a lot of bad stuff going on, but actually, ultimately, we will come through this..."

Sarah Browning:One of the things I talk about is, it's quite a useful tip, is to create reminders of yourself during better times, create reminders for yourself of where to look for kindness or where you will see, you know, examples. Because in those difficult times when there is a lot of tension and you're really anxious, it can be hard at that point to lift your head up and try and find something. But if you've already got, whether it be Post-It notes in the kitchen or, something next to your desk to remind you or whatever it might be, Time for Kindness' feed she says, little plug there. Whatever it might be I think that can be really helpful for you as an individual. Also then in conversations with others, when you are talking with somebody, a friend or a work colleague who's finding it really, really hard, you can appropriately, gently, with grace direct them to say: "Actually, do you know what? It's not all bad. There are some things out there." It does just give you that little boost to see, oh, okay, so somebody is helping someone else.

Adam Walker:In that moment you called me out and I appreciate you doing that because you were spot on. What I was visualising was in the public domain there wasn't necessarily messages of kindness, but certainly locally and to my family there was a protectionism around kindness. That was-

Mm...

That was really what I perhaps didn't call out. But coming onto your point about reminders and where to look for those, where should we be looking for those reminders and what should we be looking for? Perhaps what can we do to connect more with people on that level?

Sarah Browning:Yeah.

Sarah Browning:One of the things, one of the strands of Time for Kindness is sharing these still, is sharing these stories and these examples of kindness, that go on in the world and that people, tell us about. Things that I see and my social media manager sees, it's a bit of an amalgamation of stories. On the one hand, the examples are all different, but on the other hand, there tend to be areas where we see it more often. Actually, it is things like, now that we are all allowed to be back in close quarters with each other and so on. It's things like in shops. So somebody helping somebody else reach something, or find something, in the supermarket. One of my favorite stories, from very early on actually when I was doing Time for Kindness was at a shopping center where a friend of mine had seen a situation where there was the automatic doors and so on. A lot of them were broken. There was only one set that was working. There was an elderly person trying to come through with a little walker and people were coming the other way and streaming in and she couldn't get out. She'd have a little sit and then my friend came and stopped and let her through. The reason I like that as a story is because it's really easy to say: "Oh, well, of course, no one stopped." But someone did. Actually, so, we can if we put our focus on that example of kindness, then we can feel much better. So I think again, this seems to be a bit of a theme, doesn't it? This sort of intention of setting yourself that intention of seeing a situation and thinking: "Okay, could I look at it differently? Could I frame it differently because it will make me feel more positive?" But again, that was an example of in an area where lots of people congregate. I hear quite a lot of kindness stories on public transport, which again, I don't think we have a collective story about public transport as being a particularly positive place. Sometimes it isn't, sometimes the train, the bus or whatever is absolutely rammed and people are elbows out and trying to get in. But equally, it does also happen quite a lot that people will give up their seat for others, people will help people carry heavy suitcases, they will help you find the bus stop that you need. If you're intentional about looking for them, trying to see them, like I say, I'm not... This is not toxic positivity. I'm not saying ignore the bad stuff, but I'm saying you will see some examples. Within, workplaces, again, I think, there will be examples of a colleague helping somebody else write a report because they've done theirs or say: "Oh, I had to do that campaign last year, and this was the person I spoke to in HR who was brilliant for stories." You know?

So that stuff does go on.

Adam Walker:Yeah.

Sarah Browning:So I think we, we need to, be aware of consciously looking for it.

Adam Walker:Yeah, I absolutely agree with that.

Adam Walker:I think just taking that one step forward as well.

You just reminded me of another conversation I've had in this podcast with an amazing broadcaster and writer called Dermot Whelan Dermot, Dermot Leary, Dermot Weelan.

He talked about busyness and people using busyness as a calling card, but effectively, you ask people how are they? "I'm really busy."

Yeah.

When people are busy- Yeah...

They tend to ignore the signs and the signals that I think you're looking-

Yeah...

That, that we're looking for. Particularly over the last few months as I've been recovering from surgery myself, when you slow things down, you tend to notice things a lot more-

Yeah don't you? I'm saying that from a point of a standing desk following back surgery. Because-

Yeah...

I tell you what, when you can't move around and when you're not that flexible and when everything hurts- you really do notice when people open-

Yeah...

A door for you.

Yes.

Or offer you a chair.

Yeah...

There is such gratitude. Having spent quite some time in and around hospitals and medical establishments over these last few months, I have seen that a lot. I think there is also a slight misconception that just because health establishments and anyone dealing with patients leads with kindness. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

Yeah.

My experiences have generally been outstanding and that's not where I'm going with this. It's purely to do with the fact that when you slow things down, you notice more.

Sarah Browning:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think, because what's striked me as you were speaking there as well, is this thing of we all have a choice of what we notice, what we react to, what we focus on. So I'm sure there are also been plenty of people who have seen your crutches or whatever and not thought: "Well, I'm gonna get past that slow person." You know, " I'm not gonna give him a chair because I'm a bit tired," I'm sure you've experienced both. So then there is a choice about where are you gonna really linger and-

Mm keep your energy. I said at right at start of this conversation that I'm probably quite a naturally positive person. That's just my personality. That just tends to be how it goes. Obviously there are some people who are just naturally not so much that way and their personality is a bit more to look at the negative. Or they have experienced trauma in their life or whatever it might be that leaves them in a place where it's too frightening to, get involved in kindness and give up some control and so on. But equally I think in those situations you still have a choice of- can you just do a little bit? Actually, that might be seeing kindness rather than being kind. That, that might be: "Okay, I'll still stay here in my safe little world, but I will have a look and see what I can see and start to notice, examples of kindness." Then it can build from there. But I think sometimes particularly to your point about if we're just too busy. We've got this kind of world that somehow values busyness that actually if you become slower and you're not so busy, then you have time to think about your choice. You have time to start to exercise that a bit more rather than that, we're really a million miles an hour, just do things, don't think. You don't get that space then to think about choice.

Adam Walker:No, I think also you're spot on that.

I did find quite a lot of consideration when I was walking with a stick prior to my surgery. After the surgery and subsequent to that, we're several months out now, nearly six months, and what I've noticed is that if I ask for assistance or I particularly need some consideration for, my back. We went on a flight recently, I needed to be considered when I went onto the plane and yet I don't present as someone who looks like they're particularly poorly. So-

Sarah Browning:Yeah...

Adam Walker:I don't want people to feel like they have to walk with sticks or, medical devices to get the attention that they need, but, it really does speak to that point I think which is if you're leading with kindness, then you can see through whatever those things are because not all disabilities are visible-

Yeah as we well know. But also I think talking around healthcare and the healthcare space particularly, many of the, people that I work alongside and have come across in my career have been those kind people, have gone into the industries that they have, particularly around helping patients and improving the lives of patients because they've had their own personal experiences, whether it's been through themselves, through their friends, through their family and they want to make that difference.

So, I think we all have a part to play in that. That's really-

Yeah...

Where I'm coming to with that. I think it's a really a really great example that you've given there as well.

Adam Walker:So, on the point of Kindness Ambassadors, if I were a Kindness Ambassador in an organisation that you were leading, tell me what kind of seeds that those individuals are sowing within an organisation so that we can perhaps impart this to our listeners and followers of the podcast?

Sarah Browning:What you've just said about not all disabilities are visible and those sorts of things, I think that's a really important point. I guess it's a sort of caveat to some of the things that I talk about. I am coming from a position of privilege, of not having a disability, visible or otherwise. That will then change, your experiences of life. I think you can still notice things, but you will have a different lens to see things through. But coming to Kindness Ambassador; so the, the Kindness Ambassador community and I call it a community. At the moment, if I'm honest, I do not have a lot of time to put into re- building it as a community. It's a sort of an aspiration for the future. But there are a growing number of people who are sort of joining in with that. What I ask people to do is to make a pledge to every week, each week, notice at least one act of kindness. Of every one that they see, tell at least one other person about it. I think that is the key really Yes, it's great to notice it for ourselves and it has a positive impact for ourselves, but it comes back to that storytelling again and it comes back to that there is a lot of kindness in the world, we just don't talk about it enough. But if we see something and arrive at the office and can say: "Oh, how was your journey?" "Oh, it was fine. There was a lot of traffic, but somebody, kind soul, let me out in front of them at the junction." It could just be as simple as that- a really small thing. Again, it gets us all more used to using the language around kindness as well.

So I said earlier about this kind of confusion between kindness and niceness, and I think sometimes we almost default to, "Oh, that, that was nice," as it somehow feels a little bit more acceptable to say that something is nice than, than kind starts to sound a bit out there.

So again, I think, you know, in terms of your, your point of, of what can people do within organisations, I think they can talk about it. I think they can talk about kindness. I think they can give themselves permission to have those kind of, kind conversations, those more human ki- conversations, and not go straight to the sales figures or the- research or, or whatever it might be.

You know, it's very s- and, and hopefully people would find that is a, a fairly small, manageable change. Because I think that is also a problem with change, isn't it? And I'm sure you come across this in your work as well, that change, transformation, sudden- it feels huge. It's too big. I can't do it. I'm going to retreat.

Whereas if we can just little tiny steps can, can make a difference and can build up to something much bigger.

Adam Walker:Yeah. It's change management is something that seems to be a theme that runs through many of the conversations that I've been having particularly recently. So that's a really interesting point that you make there because effectively this is organisational change, isn't it?

So you need those ambassadors. You certainly need a pledge like you've talked about, but actually perhaps you do need something written on the wall and maybe you do need some, you know, some banners across your chest like you've got today. I'm wondering, is there anything particularly that we haven't spoken about, Sarah, that perhaps we should have done?

Sarah Browning:We've covered a lot, haven't we? Lot, lot of aspects of kindness. -

Sarah Browning:I think So my, my Time for Kindness program has kind of three slogans, if you like, or three sort of principles that it is built on. So, one is kindness is powerful because it connects us as human beings. And, one is kindness is all around us, which again, we've already talked about. And I think the other one that we haven't talked about really is kindness is contagious, in, in, in the best possible way.

So I did have to sort of think about, using that, you know, in, in the setting up the program in the post-COVID era, or even a still going on COVID era, quite, quite honestly. But, but I think that probably speaks to, to what we were talking about with the Kindness Ambassadors in, in particular, that it, you know, when, when we, we see it, we then see more of it.

I mean, it's a bit like I don't drive myself, but people tell me if you decide you want to buy a red car, suddenly you see red cars everywhere. So, you know, you start to notice kindness, then you will... I promise you, you will see more and more of it once you start. But also once we start talking about it, we start recognising it and valuing.

I mean, you know, we've talked about values, haven't we? That the sort of valuing it, then you, you get more. So I think, you know... And, and, and, and I, I have very much noticed when I set up Time for Kindness five-ish years ago, pe- there weren't really many people talking about kindness on LinkedIn, for example, or in a sort of a business context or workplace context, and now there are more and more doing that.

And again, I think it's because, some of it's algorithms, I do know that, but it's not just about the algorithms. I think it is also because you s- you feel a bit braver if you're not the only one. And, and I certainly have noticed, that talking more openly and, and right at the start we said about my, my title being a Kindness Cheerleader.

I, for a long time, I called myself a communications consultant and Kindness Cheerleader, and I sort of tacked it on the end. And then actually I swapped it around and I've sort of, you know, I've, I've got much braver about leading with kindness and talking about kindness messaging. That cuts through way more than talking about communications ever has.

And so I think it's sort of as, you know, as we all get a bit braver about it and we talk about it more, that sort of contagious aspect of, of it growing, is, is, it can only keep going, I think.

Adam Walker:Yeah. I, I think that's just such a brilliant way to, to connect, to connect everything back really.

You know, talking around COVID and the contagion effect, I mean, it's hilarious and it's brilliant. And I guess when you came up with those slogans, they were even more pertinent and they actually challenged, challenged the status quo then, as much as they translate, I think, really well into, you know, your message going forward.

Adam Walker:thank you so much for, for giving us such, such honesty around that at this point in the conversation, Sarah, I always like to conclude with a quick-fire round. Sure. And I'm wondering, what is the one piece of advice you would give to your younger self?

Sarah Browning:Ooh, that's a good one, isn't it? I think, I think it would probably be to, to keep, keep believing in myself and my approach to work, to life.

Because I know there have been times where I perhaps have dialed back a bit my enthusiasm, is probably what it really comes down to. And I, I can remember in particular a, a, a, a situation years and years ago when I was much more junior in my career and I needed to contact, an organisation in, in The States who were doing a progr- or had done a program similar to what we were doing, and I wanted to, you know, learn from kind of how had they gone about communicating it.

And my, my initial draft of my email was, you know, "I'd love to hear about X, Y, Z," and, and, you know, that, that sort of, language. And a more senior colleague looked at it for me before I sent it, and, and basically stripped out all of that, and it became a very dry, email. I never heard from them again.

And I, I, I, so I... You know, that's just one very specific example that sticks in my brain. But I think just in general terms that kind of recognition of enthusiasm is good. Plus generally, people respond very well to it. So yeah, I think that would be advice. I'm not saying I always follow it now either, but I do it a lot more now than I, I used to.

Adam Walker:That's brilliant. What are the top three qualities you value most when building a team?

Sarah Browning:Ooh, that's good. I think empathy, that we, we talked about. I, I think, I think that's, really important to me. I think,

Difference in the sense of recognising that we can all bring something different to the table. I don't mean as a tick box exercise, but I mean as a genuine... Actually, if we all look the same, went to the same places, have the same perspectives, then, then actually we're not gonna get such a rich outcome.

And so actually if we bring people together who bring different skills, whether that be technical skills or, or life experience, I, I think that's really important. And the other one I guess would be- Connection. I mean, I've talked about that a lot as well. I think, you know, that's making sure that we have the space and time to connect, as humans, as, and, and, and, you know, have fun while we're doing the work and, and getting things delivered where we can.

You know, that's not always going to be possible obviously, but, I think that, that willingness to, to be a team and not be individuals who happen to be sitting on the same bank of desks, for example, - Yeah... This is something that I think is really important. And,

Adam Walker:and I, I'm glad you mentioned connection because I think at the conference, the Kindness Conference, there were lots of connections being made.

Yeah. Obviously we connected at that particular time. Mm. And it's something, it's a skill that I just want to reinforce is so hard to find in people, that when you do connect you just wanna do more of it. And I think that in itself brings, you know, bring, brings kindness to the fore, doesn't it? But-

Sarah Browning:I think it does.

I think we're stronger together. That... I mean, that's a bit cheesy to say, but, but, you know, people will s- sometimes, you know, if you say, "What's your favorite word?" And I think people expect me to say kindness, but actually my favorite word is together, because I think we do do so much when we, we come together as groups

Adam Walker:What is your favorite thing outside of work, Sarah?

Sarah Browning:Well, there's lots on that list. I, I, I love spending time with family and friends and, again, connection, togetherness, that kind of thing. In terms of the, one of the... There, I guess there are two things that really help me relax outside of work.

One is being outside, going for walks, whether that be in the countryside. I'm not lucky enough to live near the sea like you do, but if I did, then I would go for walks on the beach. So that, that sort of exercise and air is, is really important to me. Yeah, absolutely, that beautiful picture you've got behind you.

And then the other thing is I create art, which actually is some of what I've got behind me, some of my paintings. So, yeah, that's one of those things where I really kind of lose myself in, in paints and pencils and just creating, which is something again which, which I got back into during COVID, like a lot of people did.

You know, it's that time to have something to just take your mind off everything.

Adam Walker:Thank you for sharing that. And finally, what is your number one golden rule in life and in business?

Sarah Browning:it is be a pleasant person to work with. Which sounds a little insipid, I realize, but actually what I, what I mean by that is I think, it is you c- you can get a, a lot more done if people want to work with you.

And that is, as we've talked about today, you know, that's not about being always nice and always telling them what they want to hear and being a people pleaser, but it's about making sure that your interactions with people, leave them and, and yourself hopefully in a more positive place. And that, you can, you know, yeah, you are, you know, they en- they want to come back to you and work with you again because they had such a positive experience last time

Adam Walker:Thank you so much for, for being so honest.

Adam Walker:we started the conversation with describing you as a Kindness Cheerleader, and I think we've spent the time of this conversation talking through, you know, how to instill those kind practices into workplaces by bringing in Kindness Ambassadors, building trust, emotional empathy in organisations, and that contagion effect around kindness, which I think will just resonate in my ears, for a long times, a long time in the future.

I wrote down that, that quote, "Starting with the end in mind," because it just brought everything together. That if we lead with kindness in the, in the beginning, then it can only play forward positively. And I think it's just really, really important that anyone following and listening to this podcast really understands that, you know, there are people like you, Sarah, and there are many people like you doing the things that you're doing to influence organisations and people and, you know, connecting with people around that piece of, you know, the connection.

Yeah. It's really, really so paramount that we reinforce that point, and I'm so grateful for you sharing your truth today on, on Pharma Prescribedd. Thank you so much.

Sarah Browning:Well, thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed the conversation. And, and I think, like you say, it's, it's great to be able to have that opportunity to hopefully make people feel a bit braver than perhaps they, they have done in terms of kindness.

And very much, you know, if for whatever reason you are not yet in a place to start being kind, I'd really urge people to start by seeing kind, start noticing what is already out there. And again, that can help you feel a bit braver. So yeah, I hope people found the conversation useful and, and I've certainly really enjoyed it, so I hope they, they enjoy listening to it.

Adam Walker:Thank you, Sarah. It would be r- also remiss of me to, not to remind people if they want to get in contact with you and they want to instill kindness into their organisations, what's the best way of getting in contact with you?

Sarah Browning:take a look at my website, so timeforkindness.co.uk. W- I'm also on Instagram and, LinkedIn, probably the two best social media to, to find me.

I'm Time for Kindness on as well. So yeah, I would love to, to hear from people. And like I said at the start, I always love talking about kindness and, and working with people in organisations who want to have more of that positive impact. So yeah, I l- I look forward to hearing from people.

Adam Walker:Thank you, Sarah.

Thank you so much.

Sarah Browning:Thanks very much.