Leigh Fell — The Caritas Effect: Transforming Pharma

Speaker:I am Adam Walker, a biometrics consultant, and this is the Pharma Prescribed Podcast where leaders, innovators, and hidden voices in healthcare open up, no sound bites, no spin, just raw insight, one prescription at a time in an industry driven by data protocols and pressure. We rarely pause to ask the human questions.

Speaker:What drives us, what breaks us, and what truths live behind the titles we wear.

Speaker:Leigh Fell is a trailblazer in clinical research, a champion of corporate wellbeing and the visionary founder of Caritas. Leigh\'s journey from managing oncology trials to building a purpose-driven CRO is a masterclass in blending scientific vigor.

Speaker:With human-centered leadership with a degree in physiology, sports science, and nutrition from the University of Glasgow, Leigh began her career running trials for cancer therapies. In 2017, she launched Caritas with a bold mission to create a company that not only advances medicine, but also nurtures its people.

Speaker:Today, Caritas specializes. In trials of brain disorders and oncology, partnering with pharma innovators to address areas of profound unmet need. Leigh\'s leadership philosophy, what she calls corporate athleticism, has led to a 30% increase in employee retention and a culture where wellness and performance go hand in hand.

Speaker:That ethos earned her a place in the Sunday Times feature on 25 women succeeding in 2025. A spotlight on visionary leaders shaping the future of business science and society with purpose and resilience. Leigh, welcome to Pharma Prescribed. How are you?

Speaker 2: Hello. ~~Thank you.~~ Thank you for having me. That was a lovely intro.

Speaker:great to see you, and as I said, ~~it\'s,~~ it\'s been a while since we spoke and.

Speaker:I\'m sure our audience would love to hear a little bit more about how Caritas came about, but more importantly, your own personal story and how you came to be sat here today.

Speaker 2: Okay. Well, ~~I\'ll start, uh,~~ I\'ll give you the brief history, ~~so, um.~~

Speaker 2: You mentioned that my degree was in physiology, sports science and nutrition, and I had a, just a general interest in all things health related. ~~Um,~~ I kind of inadvertently fell into this industry. I just applied for anything and everything to do with science and, and ended up in clinical research starting out very briefly.

Speaker 2: Data management, which is your area. ~~Um,~~ but quickly moving into the clinical operations side of things. So I\'ve been in clinical development for 17 years now, ~~um,~~ in a variety of different companies. CROs big and small, but also pharma and biotech directly. ~~Um,~~ and then started Caritas eight years ago. So yeah, it\'s been quite a journey.

Speaker:So ~~as, as,~~ as someone who\'s also an independent consultant and someone who\'s set up their own business, it\'s not a straightforward and straight line, is it? No. To building this empire that you sit behind?

Speaker 2: Well, no, it\'s, ~~um,~~ it\'s amazing how things fluctuate ~~and, and, um,~~ evolve over time.

Speaker 2: So yeah, ~~the initial driver, I think was~~ the initial driver to set up my own business was, ~~um,~~ to build a company that would.

Speaker 2: Look after its employees because I\'d been a CRA and I\'d experienced burnout as a CRA and I really felt like you, ~~um,~~ . You would get more from your employees if you treat them well. So I wanted to bring, ~~um,~~ a, a company that would look after particularly clinical operations, ~~um,~~ employees, but quickly it kind of evolved into, ~~um,~~ something else with my ~~first, the work,~~ first work I did when I started was with ~~um,~~ GW Pharma, which was cannabinoids and pediatric epilepsy.

Speaker 2: And that really resonated with me because my. Brother, my uncle both had epilepsy when they were little. And then I realized that all the illnesses in my family had been neurological, so Alzheimer\'s, trauma, stroke, depression, epilepsy. ~~Um,~~ so from there I decided to try and build a neurology focused CRO, ~~um,~~ and, and to try and bring the lessons learned from oncology into neurology.

Speaker 2: ~~Um.~~ But over time I was asked, or we were asked to do more and more oncology work \'cause that was my network, my experience. ~~Um,~~ so now we are open to all therapeutic areas. So it\'s really evolved over time. It\'s been, ~~um.~~ It\'s fluctuated with ~~the, the~~ way the market has gone ~~and, and the, the, um,~~ our strengths, I guess what, what has come naturally to us and, ~~um,~~ yeah, you have to, I guess, adapt with, ~~and, and~~ especially over, over the last eight years, there\'s been some pretty significant changes in the world.

Speaker 2: So, ~~um,~~ you have, the business has to adapt, ~~uh,~~ with those changes.

Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker:Well, thank you for explaining that, and I think certainly the first time that you and I spoke, I mentioned that the name Caritas meant something to me in the fact that it was the motto of my secondary school that means caring.

Speaker:So perhaps you could just explain a little bit more about that and how that came about for you. I\'m assuming it connects back to that, that story of, you know, your own life experience with your own family, but perhaps you can elaborate.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I think this may have been one of the things that we connected over originally, because for me it was also my secondary school motto.

Speaker 2: So it was ~~our,~~ our school motto was ex corde Caritas, which means love from the heart. And, ~~uh,~~ the, I took the caritas bit, which for me meant, ~~um,~~ love for all. So because I wanted to build this company that would look after all of its people. It\'s, ~~um,~~ it\'s clients. Patients, but also our own employees. So all the people, ~~um,~~ so Love For All is where, where the name Caritas came from.

Speaker 2: ~~Um,~~ and yet has that, that long term meaning for, for me. So it\'s, ~~uh,~~ the name has actually evolved. It started as Caritas Clinical, but turned out there was a company in the US called that already. ~~Um,~~ and then, ~~um,~~ it evolved to Karita Neuro Solutions and, and now Karita Bioscience. So. Yeah,

Speaker:I, I love the principles behind it, and I think the most, the most important work is done from a place of intention, and it\'s clear where your intentions come from and mm-hmm.

Speaker:Certainly when I\'ve followed you over the last few years, your posts on LinkedIn are fabulous. I love the personal ones as much as the professional ones, and. I can see that you\'ve got a dog that you\'re very well trained and, and you\'ve done yoga and you\'ve done all sorts of other activities.

Speaker:And how have you built that into the company on a, on a day-to-day basis?

Speaker:How does that become your every day?

Speaker 2: Yeah, well that was very early on. We set that as kind of the ethos of the company. Obviously with the name meaning, ~~um,~~ love for All. We want to look after our own people. ~~Um,~~ hopefully if we look after our own people, they will look after the business in that Richard Branson, ~~um,~~ scheme of things.

Speaker 2: So, ~~um,~~ within our business, wellbeing of employees came, has always come. First, we on team calls, we would start with, ~~um,~~ a gratitude session. So we\'d all go around the group and say something, we\'re grateful for that day. So we start the meetings off on a, a positive note. And it also helped us bond a little bit.

Speaker 2: We\'re all working remotely. ~~Um,~~ so it\'s just a nice way to bring some, ~~um,~~ some ~~hu~~ human, ~~uh, um,~~ interaction ~~into,~~ into our team meetings. ~~Uh,~~ but we\'d also have regular. Get together is where we actually did things like, ~~uh,~~ yoga. We did aerial yoga at some point, ~~and we,~~ and we did all sorts of different team bonding things that were always wellbeing themed.

Speaker 2: ~~Um.~~ As you say, I have, I\'ve trained as a yoga teacher, so that\'s in my, my outside world. So I try and bring, I guess kind of the philosophy pH philosophies from that into, ~~um,~~ how I lead. But I also, with having the background in sports science and nutrition, ~~um,~~ my real passion is in. All person health. So, ~~um,~~ that is wellbeing from, you know, eating the right things, doing the right exercise, getting sLeighp, getting, ~~um,~~ working on your mindset, but also, ~~um.~~

Speaker 2: It could be, ~~uh,~~ having the right pharmaceutical treatments as well. I think it\'s all a part of, ~~um,~~ the whole. And, ~~um,~~ I want to bring that into ~~how,~~ how we look after our employees. As I say, I think our employees are more likely to get, have fulfilled happy careers and lives if they are looking after their own wellbeing.

Speaker 2: But also we want to somehow in introduce that into our trial designs as well. ~~Um,~~ so we\'ve always had this kind of, ~~um.~~ Offering, which we\'ve called Caritas Cohesion in the past, which is, ~~um,~~ ki almost having a third arm ~~in,~~ in our trial designs where we introduce coaching or mindset training alongside the Pharmac pharmaceutical intervention, ~~um,~~ to hopefully really bring the best out of the drug.

Speaker 2: So, and, ~~um.~~ In clinical trials, we are often trying to show that our medicine can beat the placebo effect, but I feel like we have an opportunity to, ~~um.~~ Add in, add in the placebo effect as a positive. So yes, we still want to show there\'s difference there between the drug and the placebo, but can we also show that if you actively engage your mindset, you can then further enhance the performance of the drug and, and ultimately the outcomes for patients?

Speaker:Yeah. You make a really interesting, ~~uh,~~ point there around mindset. And of course a lot of people are talking now around. Mental health, but there are plenty of podcasts out there. There\'s lots of information out there in the public domain. Have you seen, or how have you seen that shift, you know, in the last five to 10 years?

Speaker:Because. We\'ve had the, the pandemic, which we know has been a, a mental health crisis for many, many people. And before that there have been other interventions that have clearly impacted people. You mentioned your own experience of burnout. I\'d love to know, you know, how you\'ve seen that transfer into the public domain.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I, there\'s been a huge shift since I started the business, both in mental health and just neurology kind of in general. ~~Um,~~ when I started Caritas eight years ago, all the big pharmas were kind of shutting down their neurology pipelines because there was just, ~~um,~~ there, well, there was a 99.6% failure rate at that point.

Speaker 2: So, ~~um,~~ it wasn\'t really, ~~um.~~ Worth the investment. We\'ve seen a couple of big approvals in the last year or so in, in Alzheimer\'s. And hopefully that will give some, ~~uh,~~ confidence to this field. And I think there\'s been a huge shift in the investment in that space. And hopefully we will see further developments.

Speaker 2: But also in the mental health side of things. We started out really early on really campaigning for people to, ~~um,~~ speak about mental health because at that point it was, ~~um.~~ You know, ~~still,~~ still kind of taboo at that point to talk about mental health. And then as you say, after the pandemic, there\'s been this huge shift where it is now very, ~~very, um, uh,~~ commonly spoken about.

Speaker 2: ~~Um,~~ I think ~~there\'s,~~ there\'s still a long way to go, but it\'s a completely different, ~~um,~~ world that we\'re in now in that space. But I think there\'s still a gap between bringing the mindset together with kind of physical health. ~~Um.~~ There\'s still a lot of people who see those as two separate things, whereas ~~I,~~ I see them ~~as a,~~ as a whole, you cannot have, ~~uh,~~ good physical health with, if you have poor mental health and, and vice versa.

Speaker 2: So, ~~um,~~ I think we still have, ~~uh,~~ some way to go in terms of bringing that all together, particularly in our healthcare systems. It\'s all very, ~~um.~~ Segregated at the moment. So I don\'t know how we bring that together in, in our healthcare, but I think that\'s, ~~uh,~~ something that needs to, to be focused on going forward.

Speaker:I\'m curious, when you were talking around, ~~um,~~ how you measure those types of actions around, is it quality of life measures and questionnaires and e pros that you are in intervening into clinical trials? Is that how you are approaching it?

Speaker 2: That\'s certainly what we\'ve done up to now. ~~Um,~~ questionnaires and any pros, I think there going forward, there\'s scope for more translational kind of measurements and, and more objective measurements.

Speaker 2: I, I think it very much depends on the, on, on the individual, ~~um,~~ in indication. But we know, for example, that mindset makes a difference to actual physical outcomes in an individual. ~~Uh.~~ Individual illness. So, ~~um,~~ I think, you know, we can show, well, one of the examples I would probably bring to to mind is ~~the, the,~~ the weight loss drugs, the GLP, ~~um,~~ one drugs as PIC and manjaro and, and those things, ~~those,~~ those have been very effective for weight loss, but they\'re most effective when you use them in conjunction with, ~~um,~~ programs for proper exercise and, and nutrition and mindset.

Speaker 2: So, ~~um.~~ That\'s a real objective measurement. I mean, you can weight, you can measure weight loss, ~~um,~~ objectively. So I think it\'s not just about, it\'s not just a mental, ~~um,~~ measurement. It\'s not just a subjective measurement. I think that there are ~~real,~~ real impacts that can be made through, ~~um,~~ engaging the power of the mind.

Speaker 2: ~~Uh,~~ I think that placebo is a very misunderstood thing. I think people think it\'s a sort of imaginary thing, but, ~~um,~~ if we can. ~~Um,~~ teach people that ~~it,~~ it is, it\'s really engaging your, your immune system and it\'s, ~~um,~~ almost switching it on. ~~Uh,~~ then, then, and people start to see it from that perspective, then we can look at ways of objectively measuring it more effectively.

Speaker:That\'s really fascinating and thank you for explaining that a little bit more. ~~Um,~~ in my own family, we\'ve had experiences recently of stroke and Alzheimer\'s and. Following on from the point around, you know, the mental health crisis, is it my imagination or are more people experiencing neurological outcomes like stroke and like Alzheimer\'s?

Speaker:Is it, what\'s your, what\'s your sense, what\'s your perspective on that?

Speaker 2: ~~Um,~~ I\'m not sure whether we\'re. Getting better at diagnosing some of these things. I mean, partly people are living longer, so that will have an impact on, on dementias and Alzheimer\'s. They are among the biggest, ~~um.~~ Killers in, in the world alongside heart disease and, and cancers and yeah, it\'s partly because we\'re an aging population.

Speaker 2: I think people are, because pharmaceuticals have got, ~~um,~~ more effective, people are living longer, but not necessarily living healthier. So, ~~um,~~ that, that\'s where things, some of these progressive diseases come. Come into play. Alzheimer\'s is actually, we know that it kind of starts when you\'re in your thirties, but you don\'t really see, ~~uh,~~ the, the results of it until, until much later on.

Speaker 2: So if we can find a way of diagnosing these things earlier on, then, then that would be, ~~um,~~ really key. But, ~~uh,~~ yeah, it\'s probably, it\'s, there\'s probably be more of a focus on it and I think. We have got better at treating some of the other, ~~um,~~ diseases. Cancer is now often a chronic disease rather than, ~~um,~~ a killer.

Speaker 2: We\'ve still got a long way to go with that as well, but people are living with that, ~~um,~~ on a, on a long-term basis. So, ~~uh,~~ yeah, that\'s probably why there\'s on increase in some of these other diseases associated with old age.

Speaker:Yeah, I think cultural awareness is a thing as well, isn\'t it? Because we are more informed.

Speaker:More broadly, not just within the scientific and life science community. I think messages are getting out there in the public domain. There\'s far more on the TV and on the radio than there ever has been. Yeah. Uh, talking about health and I think the pandemic itself drove scientific language into the public domain, didn\'t it?

Speaker:And brought an awareness of self and health versus outcomes, ~~um,~~ from a personal point of view.

Speaker:A couple of years ago, I remember going to my gp, my general practitioner, and asking for a full set of bloods around my 50th birthday because I\'d been listening to lots of health outcomes conversations in and around the places where I was working, and I was told that that was really a very important stage gate to encourage longevity, but also that quality of life.

Speaker:It\'s not just extending your life, it\'s the quality of that extending of life.

Speaker 3: Yeah,

Speaker:and, and actually it\'s not something that\'s normally provided in the uk and I don\'t know whether many people realize that anymore. It ~~used to be~~ used to be a point at which all of your bloods were taken and all of your measurements, and now it\'s something that you have to do either privately or physically.

Speaker:~~Uh,~~ insist upon it with, with your general practitioner in the uk. So I, I\'m curious what your thoughts around that might be as far as, you know, extending that quality of life rather than just extension of later life.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there are a lot more people who are well informed about health, but there\'s also a lot of information that\'s really confusing out there.

Speaker 2: There\'s so many podcasts and things that sometimes it is really difficult to know, ~~uh,~~ what things to listen to and, and what not to. So, but it is good that people are becoming more interested. ~~Um,~~ I think, ~~um,~~ there\'s. There\'s probably kind of a split in demographics there and, and there\'s, you know, part of the population that, that do take a more active role.

Speaker 2: ~~Um,~~ and we probably need to try and extend that culture out as much as we possibly can, especially with the NHS under so much strain. ~~Um,~~ there\'s no way and no health system in the world can, can do everything. So we do have to try and do a bit more for ourselves or take a bit more proactive role ourselves, which, ~~um,~~ is.

Speaker 2: Partly why, you know, I think. Corporate cultures ~~need to,~~ need to be, ~~um,~~ supporting employees ~~to, to,~~ to stay healthy. And partly why that we felt we should be at the forefront of that because we\'re in an industry that\'s all about health. ~~Um,~~ so surely we should be supporting our ~~own,~~ own employees ~~to,~~ to be healthy.

Speaker 2: ~~Um,~~ but yeah, it, it is, I\'ve seen more and more people having to reach out to private clinics and things ~~for,~~ for their own health and it\'s, ~~um.~~ Yeah, obviously not everyone is, is able to do that. So, ~~uh,~~ yeah, we have to change the culture around, ~~um,~~ proactively looking after our own own health, which is, which is partly why I\'m so passionate about Whole Person Health because there are some just simple things that can be done ~~to, to,~~ to make a difference.

Speaker 2: So, ~~uh,~~ tell

Speaker:me, tell me a couple of those simple things. Well, I give, give us a couple of headlines from your perspective, I

Speaker 2: guess, for people that, ~~um.~~ Really struggle with exercise. Just encouraging people to get out for walks and get out in, in fresh air. ~~Um, and,~~ you know, just listening to meditations on YouTube that are free, those things are free and there\'s, there\'s a lot of resources that are free that you can, you can.

Speaker 2: Access for, ~~um,~~ you know, mental health or, or exercise. So, ~~um,~~ just encouraging, I guess, showing people what\'s out there and, and what small steps you can take. ~~Um, yeah, I\'m not, I\'m not sure. I\'m not sure what else.~~

Speaker:Well, I\'m just wondering about diet. So where do you sit around, I don\'t know, ~~uh,~~ vegetarian slash vegan diets versus, ~~um,~~ heavy meats and I don\'t know, lots of alcohol in your diet?

Speaker:~~Um, I,~~ I, I\'ll put it out there. Yes.

Speaker 2: Well, interestingly, ~~um,~~ alcohol is one thing that I have. Almost completely cut out over the last year or two. ~~Um,~~ I just felt like that was really having an impact on my mental health. You know, I\'d always feel really depressed for two or three days after having even just a couple of drinks.

Speaker 2: So I\'ve more or less completely cut out. ~~Um,~~ and I think that that is one thing that. We really underestimate how, how toxic that can be. I think, ~~um,~~ you know, I think it can be a, a part of a healthy lifestyle if in moderation, but for me, I had to, to move away from it really. ~~Um,~~ in terms of diet, I have always believed in just, you know, kind of.

Speaker 2: Everything in moderation. I don\'t believe in crazy fad diets. ~~Um,~~ obviously trying to have as much vegetables as you can. I think ~~the really,~~ really key thing right now, ~~the,~~ the biggest message that I\'ve learned is about trying to reduce, ~~um, uh, oh God,~~ ultra processed foods, trying to reduce ultra processed foods.

Speaker 2: ~~Um,~~ try and just keep your diet as as natural as possible as much of the time. If you have. Little bits and pieces here and there, treats here and there, absolutely fine. But yeah, I\'m a big believer in just, ~~um,~~ everything in moderation. I, I think, I also think. Different things work for different people. So you have to be very careful about, ~~um,~~ what, what you read online.

Speaker 2: So it\'s usually all the extremes that are online. ~~Um,~~ look up the healthy eating guidelines and, and follow, follow those. I would suggest, ~~um,~~ I actually track my diet on, on an app called Chronometer. ~~Um,~~ so I try. Stick roughly to make sure I\'m getting, you know, the, the right level of nutrients and macronutrients and micronutrients and on vitamins and, and things like that.

Speaker 2: Try my best. ~~Um,~~ and I think when you track your diet, you just become more aware of what you\'re eating and make better choices. So yeah, that\'s one thing I would say. Just start tracking your diet. Even writing it down on a bit of paper makes you aware of, of what you do, what you\'re eating. So

Speaker:I think that\'s very helpful.

Speaker:And. My son is studying sports and exercise science himself. He\'s going into his second year at university, and when he is at home over the summer, I can see that, you know, he\'s doing his meal prep. He\'s very clear about, you know, ~~the,~~ the different food groups that are going into that. We have had a number of conversations around alcohol and to follow on with your, ~~uh,~~ particular point around, you know, reducing your intake of alcohol from a personal point of view.

Speaker:I stopped drinking alcohol five and a half years ago, and it has utterly transformed my life, and I know that my friends and family will tell you that I\'ve become this kind of evangelical sober boy. But I\'m so fine with that because from my own personal point of view, it\'s unlocked probably 20 or 30% of capability I never knew I had.

Speaker:It\'s given me motivation that I didn\'t think was accessible. But also the sLeighp is so much better. The recovery from any exercise movement is, is definitely noticeable. ~~Uh,~~ I\'ve certainly lost some weight, which isn\'t a bad thing. And, and I\'m just more present in day-to-day life and in social settings. It isn\'t the crutch, alcohol isn\'t the crutch for me that I always thought I needed it to be.

Speaker:And I think that can be threatening to the people that you can be around. You know, I\'ve. Grown up in and around sports clubs, rugby and football. Yeah, a lot. And alcohol is central to rugby particularly. And you know, my son Sammy is ~~a big rugby player. You know, he\'s~~ a big rugby player. I mean, ~~he\'s enormous.~~

Speaker:He\'s literally enormous. ~~Um,~~ so I\'ve grown up with that as much as he\'s seen me Yes. Performing in that environment where alcohol has been front and center. So, ~~uh,~~ it\'s. It\'s again, another one of those aspects that I\'m finding generally the next generation are drinking less. My daughter is 22. She doesn\'t drink that much.

Speaker:She\'s not that bothered. She\'s very much take it or leave it, and she recognizes the impact that\'s had on her and has on her. ~~Um,~~ Samuel slightly different at the moment, but ~~um,~~ you know, we\'ll leave that one out there. He\'s working on it. Yeah, I think he\'s working on it. And, ~~um,~~ and as I speak, he\'s visiting a friend up in London and, ~~uh,~~ rather than go out drinking.

Speaker:They decided they were gonna go and watch a film, so they went and watched the film and, ~~uh,~~ had a very pleasant night in, ~~uh,~~ afterwards.

Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I get that. I, ~~um,~~ for me it was came from sports clubs as well. I was in the hockey club and it, that was the culture. It centered around that. ~~Um,~~ and yeah, the, the toughest thing when you\'re cutting out alcohol is the social settings where people expect you to want to have a drink.

Speaker 2: But I have found it Okay. As well. I, I mean, recently we had ~~a,~~ a hockey club reunion and. It was everyone reverted to form and there was ~~a lot of,~~ there was a lot of wine going around, but I wasn\'t drinking at all. And, and you can still have ~~just as,~~ just as much fun. So, ~~um.~~ Yeah, it\'s, it just takes some getting used to it.

Speaker:I\'ve, I\'ve certainly discovered that I remember more the next day. ~~Uh,~~ and I\'ll have conversations with people a week or two later and they\'ll say. I don\'t remember saying that. And I said, oh, you definitely did say that. And, and sometimes there is a, ~~the,~~ there are these repeating stories that go round that people don\'t remember that they\'ve told you.

Speaker 3: Yeah, but

Speaker:I never forget them. You see? And, and I might see them again and it comes up and I have to just, yeah. Bump bite my tongue actually. \'cause I feel like, I\'m like, but it\'s why it\'s slightly differently.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Well it\'s interesting the psychology around alcohol and how it compares to drugs because people don\'t see it as a drug.

Speaker 2: ~~Um, and~~ you know, whenever I\'ve sort of talked about, I\'ve done bits and pieces in the psychedelic space, ~~um,~~ and cannabinoids as well, and people, just, people. Or even ~~the,~~ even oncology drugs. People who are sitting with ~~a,~~ a drink in their hand will, will give you sort of, ~~um,~~ grief about being in the pharmaceutical world and how drugs do, do you harm, but they, they don\'t realize that ~~the,~~ the drug that\'s in their hand is, is one of the most harm harmful there is.

Speaker 2: So, ~~um,~~ I mean obviously oncology drugs can have terrible side effects, but, ~~um,~~ compared to some of the things that, that we, we use to, to help people, ~~um.~~ I think alcohol is, ~~uh, uh,~~ yeah. People don\'t, don\'t realize quite what level it\'s on, I think compared to some products, pharmaceutical products.

Speaker:I absolutely agree.

Speaker:~~And,~~ and I think ~~just,~~ just that whole awareness and having the conversation is actually not a bad thing, is it? Yeah. ~~And,~~ and I appreciate your insight into that because as I say, ~~uh,~~ there is quite a lot of alignment clearly around. Our principles and values. You and I, yeah. As much as the way we are living our lives.

Speaker:Because there is a perspective that I often come back to, which is, which is a cliche, but health is wealth. Mm-hmm. ~~And,~~ and you can\'t buy good health. When people lose their health, their mental capacity, their physical capacity, it\'s very difficult to regain that. Once it\'s gone, it\'s gone. Mm-hmm. You know, it\'s, ~~it,~~ it\'s a very slippery slope and, ~~um.~~

Speaker:As I say, I\'ve seen that firsthand and everything that we can do and to share with our audience, you know? Yeah, there are, there are only good intentions behind sharing these messages, so I appreciate you, you sharing that, Leigh. Yeah. ~~So, so,~~

Speaker:so back to now, Caritas and the business and Yeah. ~~Um, how are things,~~ how are things now?

Speaker:~~8,~~ 8, 9 years down the line? ~~And,~~ and what\'s the next period of time looking, looking like for Caritas?

Speaker 2: Well, I can\'t quite believe it\'s been eight years. It\'s been, ~~um,~~ nearly a decade of my life ~~in,~~ in the making, which just blows my mind really, because it doesn\'t seem that that long. ~~Um,~~ it\'s been, it\'s been quite a journey obviously.

Speaker 2: The market has fluctuated over the last few years in a variety of ways, ~~as,~~ as I\'ve already mentioned. ~~Um,~~ it\'s kind of a transformational time, I think, for everyone. The whole industry is going through a period of transformation, so we are as a business as well, looking ahead. ~~Um,~~ it\'s hard to know what the, what the industry will look like in five years with AI coming in.

Speaker 2: I feel like that\'s going to. To change things a lot, but, ~~and, and~~ we are looking in how, ~~in, into,~~ how we move with the times ~~in,~~ in that respect, how we can make the most of it. But I think also doubling down on our, ~~um,~~ belief in humans ~~and,~~ and looking after humans because that\'s essential ~~to,~~ to it all. ~~And,~~ and the more that AI takes over, the more we\'re going to need the human.

Speaker 2: Input. I think regulators and ethics committees want to see real patient and human engagement, ~~uh,~~ early in the process, but also. Real benefits for humans at the end of it. So we really have to make sure that we have that human input. ~~Um,~~ so I think doubling down on our belief in whole Person health and ~~uh,~~ whole human health and how we, how we bring that into our trial designs is, is definitely a central focus.

Speaker:I, I\'m really glad you mentioned that, the human in the loop, because of course, that\'s our job. We are the humans in the loop. ~~Uh,~~ many of the conversations I\'ve had recently on this podcast have been around the potential impact of ai, large language models and agen, ~~uh,~~ robotics. I wonder, are you seeing any of that being implemented with some of the pharma companies that you\'re working with and alongside,

Speaker 2: I think.

Speaker 2: There\'s what I\'ve seen a lot of is in the discovery space really, so I guess that we\'re, you know, discovering new potential molecules and things for, for ai. There\'s been a lot of conversations around how AI can be used for, you know, approach. Protocol design and medical writing and, and all those kinds of things.

Speaker 2: ~~Um,~~ I think what I\'m keen to see is how we can streamline processes so that, ~~um.~~ You know, we\'re, we\'re spending less time on filling in spreadsheets and all the things that just take up too much time. ~~Um,~~ and focusing more on, on the, on the human side of it. And, ~~um,~~ yeah, so there\'s, I think there\'s definitely things in the pipeline that will benefit the way we manage trials.

Speaker 2: ~~Um, more,~~ more. Streamlined and, and hopefully less and less convoluted because, ~~um,~~ because things are get more complicated. But yeah. And ~~I think,~~ I think the be there will be benefits in, in identifying mo molecules as well. ~~Um,~~ hopefully reducing side effects and improving safety profiles. That\'s what I\'m looking forward to seeing.

Speaker:Yeah, ~~I, I,~~ I would follow on from that by saying perhaps that, ~~um.~~ It\'s, it\'s the day-to-day things that take the effort that really are quite simple, aren\'t they? You know? Yeah. They\'re not necessarily deep science. They don\'t require deep science to, to do the role of a CRA, you know, check this with this and maybe, maybe crosscheck spreadsheets and, and various other things that we would always have done in the past.

Speaker:But actually there are. Some very good tools that are being developed out there.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker:~~Um,~~ in, in, in the palm of our hand and on our, on our computer desktops already. I think the only concern, or one of one of several concerns I have, and what many pharma companies and biotechs are concerned about is that their data is retained internal to their organizations behind those secure firewalls.

Speaker:That patient confidentiality is maintained and retained. And more importantly, that key decisions are made by those humans in the loop, the, the most appropriately qualified and not Yeah. ~~Uh,~~ not a chat bot. Yeah. Not yet anyway.

Speaker 2: So then I think the, the challenge will be, ~~um,~~ we obviously have hugely talented and, and hugely experienced people that can make those decisions at the moment.

Speaker 2: But how do we bring the next generation up with that level of knowledge and understanding if, if bots are doing all ~~the, the,~~ the groundwork that would\'ve, ~~um,~~ that we, we learned the, the learned the ropes from, from doing all of that. So how do we. Bring the next generation up with that level of knowledge.

Speaker 2: ~~Um,~~ I don\'t know the answer to that, but I guess that\'s where one of the challenges would be in, in new generation.

Speaker:~~We\'ll, we\'ll,~~ we\'ll leave that one out there for our audience Yeah. To maybe respond back to, to us in, in the comments, ~~uh,~~ after this one. ~~Uh,~~ I really, I really appreciate your, you know, the, the clarity with which ~~you\'ve,~~ you\'ve explained the company ethos behind Caritas, and I hope our audience will.

Speaker:We\'ll understand a little bit more about you, the person behind, behind the organization.

Speaker:I always like to finish with a quick fire round where I give, ~~uh,~~ our, ~~uh,~~ our interviewees the, the opportunity to answer some very quick questions. ~~Um,~~ so the first one being, what is the one piece of advice you would give to your younger self?

Speaker 2: I would definitely say do what you love rather than what seems like the sensible thing. Yeah, follow your heart and do what you love.

Speaker:A hundred percent agree with that, by the way. Same advice we\'ve given to our children as well. Yeah. ~~Uh,~~ what are the top three qualities you value most when building a team?

Speaker 2: Yeah. ~~Um,~~ well, you need a variety of different personality types on a team, so yeah, they can, they can look very. Different, I think, and have different, ~~uh,~~ personalities. But I actually always ask the question in interviews, what are your top three values? So I find out what they are, sort of where they\'re coming from as a person for me, definitely kindness, ~~um,~~ towards other people.

Speaker 2: ~~Um,~~ you know, that makes you a good team player and things always. Doing things with kindness. ~~Um,~~ I always look for people who can use their own initiative because we\'re a small team. Everyone has to get stuck in with bits of everything. So it needs to be people who can, especially ~~when~~ when I\'ve taken on graduates, they need to be people who can think for themselves and go and figure out how to, how to do things.

Speaker 2: So initiative, kindness, ~~um,~~ and, ~~um.~~ Well, I\'d, I\'d always probably look for people who are genuinely interested in, in the science as well and in the mission, so people who are enthusiastic about it.

Speaker:Yeah. That\'s brilliant. And, and I mentioned some of the things that I know that you do outside of work, but what is the favorite thing that you do, you have outside of your work?

Speaker 2: Well, you already mentioned my dog. He is ~~the, the,~~ the best thing in my life. He\'s, ~~uh,~~ I\'ve got a six month old Labrador puppy, ~~um,~~ and we\'re doing gun dog training, so that keeps us busy. ~~Um,~~ I love drawing him, painting him, and, ~~uh,~~ train and walks in the hills. Live right on the edge of the hills, so walks in the hills.

Speaker 2: Anything to do with my dog, basically.

Speaker:That\'s lovely. ~~I would, I would,~~ I would say very similar. I\'ve got three dogs and, ~~uh,~~ two sprockets that are mad, one of which was scratching at the door ~~just, just,~~ just a minute ago. ~~Um,~~ and a and a little cavalier King Charles, that\'s our bed warmer. So, ~~um,~~ I absolutely hear you on that.

Speaker:They\'re not quite trained like gun dogs though. ~~They\'d,~~ they\'d like to be. ~~They,~~ they chase a ball or two. Yeah. ~~Um,~~ and finally, what is your number one golden rule for life and business Leigh?

Speaker 2: ~~Um.~~ Always treat others the way you would want to be treated. ~~Um,~~ whether that\'s in how you work together on a team, ~~um,~~ whether that\'s when you\'re, when you have to make difficult decisions.

Speaker 2: How would you want that news to, to come across? ~~Um,~~ yeah, always. Even in, in from, in ~~how,~~ how you interact with other businesses as well. How would, how would you want to be, ~~uh,~~ treated as as a business? So yeah, that\'s the number one thing. Always think how you would want to treat others the way you would want to be treated.

Speaker:I think that\'s a lovely, lovely way to conclude the conversation. As I say, ~~you\'ve, you,~~ you\'ve touched on so many personal and professional areas in this conversation, and hopefully our audience will. Understand a lot more about you and certainly the mission that Caritas is on. So I\'d like to thank you for your time today, but also if any of our audience would like to reach out to you, what\'s the best way to make contact with you, Leigh?

Speaker 2: Well, ~~um,~~ active on LinkedIn, that\'s the best way to message me. Or we do have a website, so caritas bioscience.com. ~~Um,~~ but yeah, LinkedIn\'s the best way to, to find me.

Speaker:~~. Thank you so much and once again, I just wanna reiterate and~~ thank you once again for your time coming on Pharma prescribed today.

Speaker:Leigh,

Speaker 2: thank you for having me. I\'ve enjoyed our chat. It\'s

Speaker:been an absolute pleasure. Thank you.